The True Role of a CRO in Modern B2B with Lane Brannan

Lane: Everything positive and negative in revenue is a result of pipeline, everything. 
John: Welcome to Growth Driver. Where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. Today, we are going to take a fresh, honest look at the role of the modern B2B CRO. Chief Revenue Officer. Now, I think that's one of the best titles in the business, man. I mean, it's a great title and it is such a great idea, but in my experience, there's a lot of confusion about what a CRO really is and what they really do.
And I'm going to ask you to really think about all the CROs you have met and worked with in your life. How many truly great CROs do you know? 
Huh? Well, let me tell you, I know one and he's with me today here on Growth Driver. His name is Lane Brannan. He started his career as a bag carrying sales rep. He grew and got in, got promoted into a sales manager, grew into the head of sales, and then became a multi time successful CRO of small, mid size, and now enterprise technology companies. 
He is currently the SVP and general manager of the Americas. That's a title. For PAX 8. Now, if you don't know about PAX 8, they're like a growth rocket. Uh, last year, I found this stat. They were recognized last year for a three year growth rate of one thousand one hundred and thirty percent. Holy shit.
Uh, Lane, Brannan, welcome to Growth Driver, buddy.
Lane: Hey, good to be here, John. Always good to hang out with you, man.
John: Yeah, man. We go way back. I appreciate you being on the show. And my first question is what makes a kid from Odessa, Texas want to become a CRO? How did that happen, man?
Lane: That's a really good question. 
I, I, it's not, it wasn't a like set out to do this kind of thing. I actually thought I was like out of college. I thought I was. More like startup entrepreneurial. Um, not tech. I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't really think that I wasn't thinking about, you know, being in tech. But I, I did leave West Texas and came to the beautiful, um, Rocky Mountains and, and, um, intentionally moved to Denver and tech was a big scene.
And so, um, I knew that I wanted to get into sales. Um, because I didn't have, I didn't feel like I had the, the, the knowledge and, uh, and whatever to jump right out on my own. And I thought sales was probably the best way to learn, right? Talk to business owners all the time and, and just be a sponge. And uh, uh, what is it? 
22 years later, 23, I guess. Here we are, baby.
John: I know people ask me that all the time. They're like, well, how long you been in Colorado? And then I think about, I'm like, I've been in Colorado 30 years. Which is crazy. And you know, the way I explain it is, you know, you, you buy a couch, you get a dog, you, you fall in love, you sign a 12 month lease.
Next thing you know, you're on a podcast with Lane Brannan. But yeah. All right. So, hey, I want to dive in with you, man. So I would like you to define the role of a B2B CRO. Deceptively simple question. But how do you define what the CRO role is?
Lane: It's a really good question. I mean, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of folks with that title, with that role, um, today, and it, and it varies. I mean, you know, varies in the, the responsibility of the organizations that they, they lead, right. So some are only leading sales. Some are all customer facing. Some is, some are charged with, you know, this thing, which is aligning marketing and sales so that you can drive. Um, higher growth and and more efficient growth.
Right? I mean, I think that the role of a of a modern CRO is the one that from the executive seat aligns all stakeholders, right, to deliver growth, revenue goals, um, you know, employee satisfaction, sales employee satisfaction, so that you can hit that. Uh, and you know, there's, that's a, that's a mouthful. 
There's a lot in there, right? I'm sure that's what we're going to talk about, but it's really aligning the organization, um, in a way that, that, uh, that delivers. 
John: You know. So when you describe it a certain way, it, it's, it starts to sound like the CEO's job almost. Like, talk to me about CRO versus CEO. Uh, where, take me into that Venn diagram. 
And even take me into kind of the CEO relationship, like what kinds of things do they talk about? How do you divvy up the work?
Lane: Yeah. I mean, first of all, it should definitely compliment and the great CEOs that I've worked for are very revenue minded, right? And um, and so there's a, there is a team there, um, you know, I've, I've obviously been in high growth tech situations.
And so. Yeah, you've got a and I've worked for many founder CEOs. So you've got this like, um, tech mind, entrepreneurial tech mind in that in that CEO, not all of them were technologists that I've worked for. But there's a there's a tech mind aspect to it and they probably have have hired a great technical um, you know, general, right? 
But the, the best ones are the ones that are also very customer facing. And in that aspect, I think that it's, it's on us as a, as the revenue leader to make sure you utilize that right. In the right situations. But that also you take the responsibility, of driving revenue so that not only they can count on you, but so that they can do the other things that a CEO is really charged with. Which is like in our world, man, you, you better be on top of your funding, right? Um, we've learned that lately. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, it's a very complimentary relationship. A CRO can, can liberate a CEO to do the things that they need to do. But let's face it, if the business isn't growing, if the business isn't delivering revenue, then the CEO has to go tend to that.
John: That's right. 
Lane: So I take that very seriously.
John: When, when in the, in the life cycle of a, of a company, does it go from, "You know what, we don't, we probably don't need a CRO:" into, "You know what, we would benefit from having a CRO;" into, "We really would benefit, we need a CRO." Talk to me about what are those general guidelines from your perspective? 
Because you've, you've been a CRO in early stage companies, mid size companies, and enterprise companies.
Lane: It's a, it's kind of a different role in, in those stages, right? So, so look, super early on, the, the head of revenue is, and the C, I mean, everybody is in the deals, right? You are, you are in the deals. You are winning the deals. 
Um, and it has to be that way. You've got to, you've got to, um, you know, clearly understand your customer, clearly understand what it is that their needs are. And, and you've got to clearly understand how you, um, can help them with those needs or, you know, go back to your product engineering organization and develop something that helps them with those needs. 
So you've got to be in the deals. Where, where I think that. And that's very much sales leader. Right? I mean, that's, that's what it, that's, that's the definition of a sales leader. And by the way, it's a really fun job, right? I mean, you're in the game. 
John: That's right.
Lane: You know, um, but, but when you get to a point where you've got a scale, where you get to a point where, you, you have to be delivering some efficiencies. When you get to a point where, you know, I say, you know, get out of the deals and get, get into the flight tower. Right. So that, so that you can run the operation. That's when I think you cross that threshold, um, to this, you know, very important aligning the business, um, making sure that there's a, there's a, a methodology and there's good data being thrown out. I'll talk about that in a bit, right. But that you can really run the business. That's a CRO.
John: So you need a CRO when it becomes large enough and complex enough when your go-to-market operation has enough moving parts and enough people.
Is that, is that what you would say? Okay.
Lane: Yeah. Yeah. 
John: Okay.
Lane: And it's hard to define that in like revenue thresholds. I'm sure that some would attempt. But I've, I've seen it at different thresholds in different situations. Some are simple, some are complex. And so. You know, the rev threshold, the revenue threshold, or the, or that, that employee size threshold varies.
John: We're going to dig into kind of the, the CRO, CMO, CSO, CPO, uh, CXO relationship in a, in a bit. But before we kind of leave this first chapter, what are the top - you pick a number - four or five Northstar metrics that a successful CRO uses to define and to guide success.
So again, I'm not looking for sales metrics necessarily or marketing or product metrics.
What are the CRO metrics that you're like, this is my dashboard?
Lane: Yeah. I mean, look, I, as you noted before, I come at this from a sales background. So like. Everything starts in the funnel. But the funnel isn't just a sales funnel to me, right? The funnel is a marketing and sales funnel. So you've got, you have to organize and, and align around data in that top of the funnel, right? 
And, and understand who your target market is and how many of them are you're reaching and what that engagement profile looks like. Right?
Am I engaging, am I speaking to the, to the target market? Before it gets into a seller's, into a human's hands. Right? Am I able to do that? 
And so you need to to work with Marketing and and you know, the the Lead Gen SDR function should be aligned there. Right. To really understand that engagement, you've got to have a data point there to understand your engagement with your universe.
You travel a little bit further down the funnel, um, then it's about like the conversion of those old school MQLs, right? 
The conversion to an SQL, SAL, which says, 'not only am I engaged in the target market, but the way that I'm engaging with them converts' and my sellers say, "I'll get on that." Right? 
That is a, that is a key metric. You can waste a lot of energy in there. Um, and, you know, if you, you can, you can kind of allow the marketing team to, to, to feel a false positive there too. Right? 
Oh, we're engaging in the universe and they're not converting. 
If, if that DMARC is, is all the marketing organizations going after, or bonus on, or whatever, right? Then, um, that's a mess. Right? Because it's not driving efficiency. 
So you got to convert them.
Sales has to say, "That deal, that lead, um, can help me to get to my number."
Right? 
And so, you know, traveling down the funnel.
Then it's about the conversion through the stages. And that's where I think that it begins to be, um, uh, a conversation around 'are we executing the methodology that we've employed?' Right?
I'm big into, using common language in sales. 
So that you have something to measure against.
So that you have speed when you're talking about deals within your organization.
And so now you get into, into that conversion. And if you have that consistency that you can count on, you may have multiple product lines. 
If you have that consistency that you can count on, then you can throw out a lot of data about that conversion. That if you use that in a closed loop way, you can give feedback to all kinds of people. All kinds of functions.
John: So let me, let me, let me see. So the CRO is obviously not just looking at the middle or bottom of the funnel, which is where sales often lives. 
You're saying the CRO, which makes sense, is looking at literally TAM all the way down, 
Lane: Yeah.
John: –all the way down through what sometimes is, and I don't really like calling the top of the funnel the marketing part of the funnel. 
Lane: I don't either.
John: I think it's more of a team sport. But. But looking at it, and so because you're watching full journey metrics, I would imagine a successful CRO is looking for breaks, for leaks, for, um, uh, uh. You know, just misalignments between marketing and sales or SDR. 
And is that part of what you do? Is kind of looking for, looking across departments at opportunities to improve efficiency beyond?
Lane: Absolutely. And it's not just the gaps. You're also looking for the things that are flying through the funnel, and asking yourself the question, are we putting enough on that?
Um, those are, those are opportunities to double down. But absolutely. That's what you're looking at. 
And it's your job then to take that information and go to the business and influence revenue. That's why we're called a Chief Revenue Officer.
John: That's right. Now, everything, the examples you just used, sounded like acquisition. New logo acquisition to me. But we also know there's a retention part of the cycle, and there's the expansion, cross sell, up sell part of the cycle. Where do you, uh, how do you, every day you wake up, you could go, you know, we could spend your whole career in acquisition. In fact, many people do. 
How do you think about the, the, divvying your focus between acquisition, retention, and expansion?
Lane: Look, I mean, revenue's revenue. If you're leaking out the bottom, you gotta replace it on the top, and everybody knows what's harder to do. Right?
Um, so the whole retention piece is absolutely key. And there's a lot in there, right?
I mean, you could have, um, you could have pricing issues, which is kind of a product marketing, um, thing. You could have product issues that are causing leakage, which require you to, to, um, close that feedback with product and engineering. 
But you have, you have to pay attention to retention. Because it's too expensive not to. 
John: Well, I think that's really true now.
I think it's become so clear, totally interesting. 
Lane: And just to, just to note one thing. Like, I really don't think, uh, yes, you've got the new business acquisition piece of the tip top of the funnel that you really have to, to nail. But beyond that, I don't think of opportunity management and running deals through the funnel, whether they're new or expansion that differently.
Marketing is still involved. You need air cover for marketing. You gotta look at the conversion. Um, it's the same thing in my opinion. We're trying to convert.
John: That's right. Yeah, interesting. Alright, so, um, take me into uh, you're a CRO, entering a company, and you're in the early stage of that process. How do you lay the groundwork for success as a new CRO at a new company? 
How do you install? Do you have a growth playbook? How do you install your playbook? 
Lane: Yeah, so. The, I would not claim that a CRO should have a rigid playbook. Come on. Right. 
John: Yeah. It's almost a trap question actually.
Lane: Yeah. But you do have pattern recognition. And you do know some things that work. Right?
John: Right. 
Lane: Um, but let's back up a minute. What I think is really important when you enter into a new head of revenue role, what's really important is that you know where you are. Right. So, so let's face it.
What happens was usually that the last person that was there, wasn't the solution for the next chapter. 
They could have been, they could have been failing or it could have been a phase, you know, phased, um, uh, a growth phase thing where, you know, you needed somebody that had the pattern recognition for that next growth phase.
Um, anyway, there was a change made for a certain reason and, um, you interviewed for the job. And you probably interviewed with the CEO and the board.
And so it's really important that you understand why you were brought in. Right?
John: That's right. 
Lane: Um, because here's the, the, the, the truth, is that a head of revenue walks a tightrope every day. They walk this tightrope, and on one side of the tightrope is the business, and the board, and, you know, your fellow executive team. Right?
And you have to be an advocate for the business. 
On the other side of that tightrope is your revenue organization. And really, mainly your quota bearing people. And you have to be an advocate for them. 
So in order for you to be effective when you walk in, you need to know where each of them stand. And I would be very forthcoming with, "Hey, this is what we're doing. This is why I was brought in. I have a clear understanding of that from the board, from the CEO. This is why that's a benefit to you on the quota bearing side of things. And this is how I think I can help." 
Right?
So that's thing number one, is establishing that out of the gates so that you, I mean, trust is, is very key. And it's not that you're going to have ultimate trust on day one, but you need to get like past that first leadership by title stage, and you need to get into that leadership by permission stage. 
John: Right.
Lane: And that's how you do it. Right. But then, but beyond that, you know, people say, well, what's the 30, 60, 90? What's the, you know, 180? 
Mmm. That's not a, I don't think that that's a hard, fast playbook. I think if you establish what I just talked about, what you're looking to use is your pattern recognition so that you can quickly deliver value to both sides of that tightrope.
And if you can quickly deliver value, and those are typically things that are different and new and, and, you know, it could be like professionalizing the sales organization in a certain way. It could be helping them to be more productive. It could be delivering pipeline, right? 
But if you quickly deliver value, then, and you get momentum, then what you're looking for is the next piece of pattern recognition, the next piece that you can deliver value on. 
And, and I think if you're constantly curious, in that way, then you can get the momentum that you need.
John: Growth goals are tough to hit. I know it, you know it, and the kind people in Intelligent Demand know it too. That's why they have a team of experts across media, content, creative, rev ops, and strategy who know how to work together, and with you, to crush your revenue growth goals.
Reach out to him at IntelligentDemand.com. Schedule a free consult. Talk some shop.
John: I've watched you in different industries, different company sizes. Um, from my perspective, it's, it's the way I would put it is, it's I've watched you, Lane Brannan, install sort of some expectations about how to run a revenue engine. 
And I, and I think our audience would really appreciate that. 
And what I from my perspective, I've seen you say, look. Every, obviously every situation is unique, and you're smart enough to know that. But there are some guiding principles. Such as, look, there are, to run an effective B2B revenue or growth engine, there are certain minimum systems you need. Certain meetings and cadences, cross functionally. You need expectations around process, rigor, uh, practices you install. Um, if there's not the right messaging aligned between marketing and sales, I've seen you get that right multiple times. Talk to me about how you think about that.
Lane: It started– To me it starts with four truths. About revenue. Or about running a B2B revenue business. 
The first truth is that you gotta have a strategy. And a strategy that's not written on paper is a strategy that doesn't exist.
Nobody can align to it. 
Right?
So you've gotta put this thing out in a way that's, you know, kinda distilled down a bit to where you can land most of that funnel and the dependencies and the relationships of that funnel, on a page, how we're going to go about it. 
But it begins with the strategy on paper and you evangelize the heck out of that strategy, right? And you, you know, if you're in various groups in the business, you can show how they attach to the strategy and now you've connected with people and connected them to the company's objective, right?

John: So that's not, is that a, is that a corporate strategy or is that a corporate strategy turning into like a go to market and growth strategy?
Lane: That is a, it is a corporate strategy turning into a go to market growth strategy that is on paper. Here's where we are, here's what we're going after, right?
John: Yeah. Yeah. 
Lane: Um, and a lot of the things that you mentioned should be on there, right? 
John: Right.
Lane: Methodology. How we're going to work the funnel. How marketing and sales align. What's the customer journey look like? What's our rigor going to look like? How does it all attach?
John: Isn't it amazing how many companies don't have it?
Lane: Totally amazing. Gives me a job. 
[Laughter]
John: Me too. That's probably why we, we get along so damn well as we look, okay. All right. So that's, I won't chase that. Truth number one is "Thou shalt have a strategy and a plan. Thou shalt write it down." Okay. What's, what's truth number two?
Lane: Everything positive and negative in revenue, is a result of pipeline. Everything.
If you, if you have it, if you have pipeline and it's good pipeline, then you can optimize, you can get to work. You can do a lot of things with that. If you do not have it, then everybody does all kinds of crazy shit to deliver the revenue number, and it's not always good stuff that they're doing. Right? 
John: Right, right.
Lane: So pipeline is essential. And so, so here's the thing. You could, you could implement all kinds of great strategy down the funnel. If you don't have pipeline, then it's going to go stale. Like, there's no, there's no swings. There's no, there's no plate appearances to execute that great strategy against. Right.

John: So, so the, so the second truth is what, uh, never, ever, ever take your eye off pipeline coverage and pipeline?
Lane: Yeah. 
John: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Truth. Number three, truth. 
Lane: Number three is, is, um, I, I say the film doesn't lie, right? You gotta have data, right? Right.
John: And I've seen you do this at companies. As you, uh, lovingly insist, on cross functional marketing product, SDR sales, getting CS, getting together and honestly looking at a single source of, I've seen you do this, a single source of truth. And look at the game tape. Is that what you're saying? 
Lane: That's exactly right. And look, it's funny how it all starts, right? Um, if it's not a data driven revenue organization that you walk into, then you got to spend like, you gotta, you gotta grind this stuff out.
You spend, um, what seems like a ridiculous amount of time in rooms across functions kinda arguing about the data. Everybody brings their own data. They can tell the story about their own data. You're trying to get it to one data point that represents that thing or that piece of the funnel.
And they gotta work that out. And it's like, to me now, it's almost comical how that argument happens, right? And so you just get them in a room, and you settle on some data. And it's gonna start simple. It's okay. Get, get something on the page that you're going to consistently look at and you're going to see if you can move it. Right? 
John: Yeah.
Lane: And you can grow your discipline in data and metrics over time. But if it, you know, if you let perfect get in the way of good enough and you literally don't look at it week over week, month over month, quarter over quarter, then you're just flying blind. So data. The film doesn't lie.
John: Yeah, film, single source of truth. 
And you're right. I mean, I think one of the reasons, one of the big reasons why the whole philosophy and now, um, approach called revenue operations exists was because of the lack of that at most, most companies. And then, and then the, the inability to produce a single source of truth. All right. So that's, that's Lane Brannan's -
I love this framework. Uh, Lane Brannan's is, uh, growth, truth, CRO truth. Number three. What's the fourth? 
Lane: Yeah. People development is leverage.
John: Mmm. Mm! 
Lane: So, take all of those things, don't, don't just talk about those, those other three truths in the, in the senior team meeting, right? You got to put that front and center and you've got to, you've got to really tap into the, to the motivators, to the hearts and the minds of the people, right?
So that they can attach to that. So that they can be part of i. And so that they see themselves as benefiting from engaging in such a revenue engine. 
Right?
Um, and if you do that and you can, you can develop people from within your company to take on bigger jobs. I'm not saying that the only path to, um, to leadership or to the next leadership role is internal, but when you have it. 
When you have that within your company and you can enable and develop, you have real leverage. Right? 
Now you can be really choosy on who you bring in, whether they're a culture ad. Specifically what is the, the thing that you're hiring them for from the outside, right? And you've got this like employee retention and, and I'll talk about growth in a minute, but this employee retention and kind of overall growth mindset that's happening within your organization. 
People are leaning in.
John: Yeah. 
Lane: You got to get them attached to that.
John: I really, I've been, I've been making notes. I knew, I've never heard you say It so clearly, these four. So I want to, I want our audience to hear so because I think this is really good.
Um, so Lane Brannan's framework as a CRO; Number one thou shalt have a corporate and go to market growth strategy and it will be written down and it will be understood cross functionally. That's what I heard number one. 
Number two. For some reason I'm, I'm speaking about these in a biblical way. 
Lane: I know.
John: "Thou shalt!" 
[Laughter]
John: Thou shalt never take thou, thine eye off pipeline.
That's number two. 
Number three, you have to create a single source of truth. And then you have to gather around that and look at the game tape. And, and, and, uh, you know, you didn't say this, but I know you well enough to know that it's, and be honest about it. Be honest about it. [data] Like look at it, honestly, the positives and the negatives.
And then the fourth is, I love what you said. People development is leverage. It's, it's the people and the culture side of it. Those are really great. Those are really good.
Lane: So then there's one thing to add to that. If you do all of that, then you can accomplish this mantra, right? Which is, uh, which is what this, this, um, series that you're putting on is about, right? 
My kind of twist to the mantra is it's four truths and one mantra. The mantra is "let's grow." Right. 
So, and, and there's a lot in that. It's not just that, yes, we're on the hook to grow the business. Obviously. Right.
But as an individual, you want to grow, you want to learn, you want to be a part of something, right? 
So that's why you add the, the, the, the activator word. Let's grow! Lean in, right? 
John: You're you're firing me up. That's literally why this show is called Growth Driver. And that, you know, that that's why you're here. Oh man, it's awesome. All right. Okay. Four truths and a mantra. That's awesome. That is going, we are going to share that.

All right. So next, next I'm going to, I'm going to go into the kind of deeper into the human piece, the cross functional operating model where the CRO has to have honest conversations with the CMO, with the head of sales, with the head of CS or CX, and ultimately the CEO. 
So I want to, there's an elephant in the room, which is most CMOs I know don't really want to report to a CRO.
They want to report to a CEO. Because they perceive, and in fact, I think most CROs are successful salespeople who don't necessarily bring the pattern recognition, the experience, or sometimes even the full appreciation of marketing. 
There. I said it.
What's your take? What's your take on the CMO CRO relationship?
What is it out in the world and what should it be? 
Lane: Look, I mean, First of all, I think you got to apply some maturity to this, right? Um, if you're, if you are an executive of a high growth company, in my case, a high growth tech company. If you, if you're at that point, like get over who reports to who. It, it doesn't really matter, right?
I mean, if you, if you do this the right way, trust me, everybody's going to win. Right? And so, so get over it. Um, now that being said, I do think it's, it's the responsibility of the person that owns the number to be able to go, and professionally, um, have a relationship, ask questions, maybe even challenge some of the marketing strategy.
And by the way, if, if I'm saying that, then they have the right to, to challenge the conversion of, you know, of, of some of those efforts. And, you know, the, the SLA and the, and the, the consistency and the data, all the stuff that I've mentioned, they have the right to do that. Now I've worked in situations where, um, that head of marketing, CMO, VP of marketing works for the CRO.
I've worked in situations where they work alongside the CRO. Um, it really doesn't matter. And you have to insist upon that collective view of the funnel. If that can't be accomplished, then the business has a problem. Not, not just the CRO, right?
John: Are there any, but, I hear you and I'm not being argumentative.
I think your point that you just made is absolutely spot on, which is like at a certain point, it's not about who reports to who. And, uh, tell me about a moment when, when you. So are there moments when you go, look, I'm not an expert in this aspect of revenue growth. Uh, it could be marketing, it could be product, it could be CS. 
How do you navigate those truthful moments? How do you stay, um, as a CRO, how do you stay curious and humble and open to hearing, uh, opposing views or different points of view, or, "Hey, Lane, I hear your point about focusing on the short term pipeline, but what, what about longer term demand creation or brand?"
How do you stay open to that? 
Lane: Well, I mean, look, first of all, I think if you're not curious and you're not humble, then you should go fix that first. Um, that's a, that is something that should be clearly understood by your peers. Right? And so, um, and, and I think that, I think that if you were to talk to folks that I've worked with, they would, they would clearly say, I don't claim to know everything and I sure don't claim to know everything about product. 
Or marketing, right? I'm not a marketer, right? As a matter of fact, the, the marketers that I work alongside or that have worked in my org, I'll say that to them. "Hey, not a marketer, right? Understand revenue. What's the marketer's take on this? Tell me, like, I'm curious." Um, and I legitimately am curious, right?
Um, I think that at some point, then you have to, if, if you have that, that solid, professional, mature, executive relationship, then you can also have the conversation about the impact on revenue from all of these things. And really what it comes down to is spend in the budget. We're spending money on this, right? 
We're spending money on this. Do we have to have both? Right. And, and, and are we appropriately spending in a way that drives the ROI that we're looking for? Right. So, um, and that's revenue marketing. Right. So, so if absent any sort of, um, uh, connection to an ROI, if marketing spend is absent, any connection to an ROI, ROI, meaning, ROI meaning revenue, right? Then it's my job to drive that.
It's my job to make sure that there's an answer for that. Right. But if all I'm doing is driving, you know, with the headlights right in front of me, I'm only trying to market to the, to the things that are, you know, in this year, and that's going to prevent us from creating a position a market position next year because of branding or because of big strategy. Then a marketer should say "hey, I get it and here's the ROI and I think it's in line with our targets," right? 
I think my conversions are in line with our targets I'm spending on that because I'm casting the headlights out further.
John: And I think you just put your finger on something. From my experience working with literally hundreds of B2B organizations over the last 20 or so years, what I see on this topic of cross-functional alignment or lack of alignment is not so much revenue leaders or teams arguing about who should be responsible for what so much. I think it's more about arguing about where do we place our resources based on future oriented bets. It's, it's about the timeline, right?
And that's what I think more often they argue about. I don't, I don't know many salespeople who want to go do marketing's job, really. And I don't know very many marketing people who want to go do salespeople's job. So I think there's a lot of respect for the guilds that people are in. But I think where the rub happens is look, we only have so many dollars and so many hours in a day and so many people, where do we place our bets? 
And when do we expect to get a return on that investment? 
Is it, are we doing a this week thing or this month thing or this quarter or a next year thing? Is that what the CRO also is, is there to do is to mediate and, and direct that sort of timeline of investments, so to speak.
Lane: I mean, I think it's a yes, I think that's, I think so, but I also think that that's that if you, if you, if you have an executive team that's in this, then it's also, involvement and responsibility as CEO and the CFO, right? 
I mean, all of that is inherent to the, to the, to the businesses, PNL and budget, right? And you know, that's why I say, whether you've got a reporting structure with the marketing leader and the CRO or not, they're executive sitting around a table trying to deliver results to a business. Everybody's in on that, you know, and the same thing applies to product because the products over here, you know, kind of developing whatever they want to develop and it's not actually attached to the revenue projections, then that's an executive team issue, right? 
Yes, my responsibility to CRO is to go poke around on that so that I can deliver the results that I'm on the hook for. But from a strategic standpoint and from an investment standpoint, that is executive team stuff.
John: Um, one, one, one more beat on this. Do you? 
Well, I don't want to hide my point of view. I'm just going to say it. I, in my experience, I have seen most B2B companies over index on acquisition to the detriment of retention and expansion. And I have seen most B2B companies over index on the immediate term to the detriment of the mid and the long term.
And where we're going to go in this conversation next is that was true when money was cheap, and it was the go go growth, growth at all costs days. Now that we're pivoting into the euphemism called efficient growth, those things that I just said, those tendencies to over index on acquisition and the immediate term, I think are exacerbated even more in some cases.
That's what I think. That's what I see. What do you think?
Lane: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it is a easy trap to fall into, right? Um, and, and I mean, I do see what you mean across the, the timeframes that you're talking about, right? Growth at all costs versus efficient growth. Um, you know, if you, I'm going to go back to the, to the, the four truths, right? 
If, if you have a strategy, it's producing pipeline and it's throwing out data, then this should be obvious. It really should be obvious right? Um, because it's it at some point, it just ends up as math, man.
John: See, that's really great. I think you're right. It's the lack of a real strategy, the lack of a holistic view of pipeline, not just new logo pipeline.
It's the lack of a single source of truth that is being looked at by the cross functional revenue team. And then the fourth is it sometimes also is a lack of remembering that the people and the culture piece. When you put all that together, I think maybe that it, maybe you're right. Maybe your diagnosis is correct, doctor, that that's how you arrive at an over-indexing on shit.
We need new logos. Crap. There is no future. We just got to live for this quarter in this month because that that's what I see this animal fear in many, in many B2B companies. Seriously. Where they're just like, what are you talking about? Like, they're just locked in this dynamic. Um, really interesting. Okay, so let's talk about that pivot into efficient growth.
What has it meant? What are you observing as a CRO? As the entire business world has completely changed, the air has changed in the room, man. And what impacts are you seeing when you look out in the field that we work in called B2B growth, but also even in your own company, what does it meant in terms of budget expectations, timing expectations, a number of priorities you can execute. What kind of constraints, your benchmarks, your metrics... How has the pivot into efficient growth rippling into like real deal, cut the shit changes?
Lane: Um, it, uh, the best way I can describe it is like it increases the frequency by which as you're walking that tightrope, you're, you're answering here and answering here, right? It just increases the frequency. Yeah. Right. 
John: More calls from the board.
Lane: Yeah. And, and, and more inspection, right? And um, and you can get mad about that all you want, but I'd be doing the same thing if I was in their shoes, right?
And, don't get mad if you can't answer the questions. You should have been doing that. That's your role, right? You should have been setting up the, the instrumentation to be able to deliver you the, the insight. The film, right? So that you could maybe answer the questions in a specific way. 
So if you're, if you're, if you're caught. A little bit back on that, then, then that's where you should go fix it, right? You are not going to, to go back to 2020, 2021. It's not happening right now. Right? So get your, get your instrumentation down and, um, and be ready for that frequency. And oh, by the way, it's the same thing on the people's side. 
You gotta be an advocate for sellers. Right? So you, you have to, you have to, um, help them to understand the new reality. That's a gift, by the way. You think this is the first, you know, um, you know–
John: Downturn. 
Lane: Downturn that we're going to experience. I mean, no, it's not. And you got, you probably have a lot of folks that are early in their career who haven't experienced some sales ranks. 
Yeah. Teach them, right?
John: Yeah. You know, you know, uh, there's a, there's a Rom, I think it's Rom Emanuel quote, that dude out of Chicago, um, who said, never let a good, never let a good crisis go to waste. And when I saw this downturn coming 15 months ago, uh, I, by the way, I, I think it's rippled through B2B first and is now about to ripple into B2C for anyway.
But when I saw it coming, I thought to myself, look. Um, let's use this pivot into efficient growth, uh, wisely. Let's use it to, to give us added reasoning, uh, and courage to go fix some of the stuff that was, that was broken before anyway. And we, and we knew it, but we didn't get to it because it was the easier days, you know? 
Um, and, and so what, what are some of the things I'm talking about, um, efficient growth? What? Well. Getting clear, like, well, starts with the four truths that you mentioned. That those four truths, maybe it was okay to run your business and not have those four truths in place. But I, in my opinion, it is not acceptable anymore.
You got to do some version of Lane Brannan's four truths. Another one is, um, you know, if you look at account based, I hate that it's called account based marketing. It's not account based marketing. It's account based revenue is really what it is. ABR or ABX. You look, when you really peel back that, there's a version of ABX that is misunderstood in my opinion around oh, it's, it's an advertising thing or it's a, it's a, uh, it's a marketing thing. But if, if you actually practice account-based, what you realize is that there are guiding principles that are account-based is all about efficient growth, in my opinion. 
It starts by saying, where do you win? Target where you win. There's a good idea. Yeah. 
Lane: Right.
John: Um, and then when you, when when you go find the people that you win with, say something that is relevant to them. Personalize your pitch, your value proposition to that specific cohort or segment. And then the other thing that account base says is, why don't you act like one revenue team? 
Why don't you get your act together and execute integrated growth plays to that target audience? And so like to me, these are some of the principles that most companies need to be applying as they're pivoting into efficient growth. And, and I feel like it's tied to a lot of the things that you believe and talk about.
You know, and, and I hope, I don't know where I'm going with this. I, I, I guess my question is, do you see it that way? Like what are some of the principles you're applying inside your role to say, look, we need to tighten it. We need to tighten it, the ship up a little bit here.
Lane: I do see it that way. 
Interestingly, I was just, as you were talking through that, I was thinking back to when you and I met. And when you and I met, the business that I was leading was a bootstrapped business, right? We were operating with scarcity. We had to do this anyway. Right? Um, and uh, and, and, and I look, I mean, I'm a, I'm a kind of a glasses half full kind of person anyway. 
So I look back at that and I'm like, man, thank you. That was awesome that I had to do that, right? It was like swinging a weighted bat. Um, and, and, you know, now, now get to be at the plate and I don't care if he's throwing 95. Uh, right, right. So, so yeah, dead on you're, you're, you're dead on. Um, that is, that is how it is.
And it's not, it's not something to get discouraged about, right. It's our responsibility to lean in, you know, maximize the situation that you're in.
John: One thing I do want to get your take on, especially as someone who came out of the sales world, is it just me or is the SDR/BDR function evolving because of changing buyer patterns because of, in my opinion, the, the unevolved abuse of outbound SDR by so many companies, because of new technologies and now because of AI and chatbots?
So I have an opinion, but I want to, I'm going to withhold mine for once in my dang life and ask you a question, which is. Is the SDR, BDR, XDR function still relevant in B2B today? And if so, why? How is it changing? What's your hot take? XDR, go.
Lane: I'm gonna read you a text exchange that I had the other day.
Is that cool? 
John: Yeah, I love this. This is great.
Lane: Okay, so one of my buddies, I went to college with this guy. Way smarter than me. He's a finance leader and he works for an equity company and kind of gets placed in these transformational roles in portfolio companies of theirs. And so he asked me these questions.
He'll send me a text and asked me a question not being a revenue leader, but he's kind of like on the fringe of it. He needs to to help his company and so he said, "Question from my rev ops lead for you – Are you seeing a secular decline in meetings per SDR over the last few years?"
And then he followed it, this is funny, he followed it with, "In West Texas speak, secular decline means like the Cowboys since 1996." So, I've given you some insight into the banter between me and my buddies. 
John: I love it.
Lane: Here's my exact, here's my exact answer to him. "I haven't seen a slow erosion of meetings per SDR. But I think that's because the role of the revenue leader is to align marketing and sales motion to the current times. Marketing should be providing engaged prospects to SDRs. Cold calls are dead. SDRs should be responsible for executing sequences like via outreach sales law for some sales engagement tool, with content built to address the issue the prospect is thought to be solving indicated by their digital engagement." Right?
"Those are deposits. And after two or three deposits or whatever you say, then a withdrawal can be made. Like that's the meeting set, right, by the SDR. And sales gets handed an engaged leave with an identified problem to be solved." 
Um, and then I told him that "I'd recommend that you use commonly understood language when you communicate with sales going forward, not things like secular decline." 
Anyway, um, that was, that was my answer. I think that's the answer to your question, is it? 
John: Oh, well. Yes, I'm not, I'm sort of not surprised because of our history and our alignment. The way I would say it is, um, the SDR function, the idea of a human being sitting in between growth marketing and sales, or even CS, the idea of a human being applying the kind of attention, and on the fly personalization that only a human can apply. 
The idea of that person, we call that SDR, BDR, whatever, is absolutely still relevant. A hundred percent. What is also true, I think, is that, the way that you apply that resource has to be, what did you say in your text? It has to change based on the times. And that's a great way to say it. And I think, and I, one of the things that pisses me off, grinds my gears about this industry of ours is it's the, it's just the never ending hypey bullshit around "Email is dead! 
SDR is dead! Content is dead!" You know, like it's just, it's. We, we, we ignore things forever and then we get one bit of data and over pivot incredibly. 
Lane: Yeah.
John: And over, overreact and, and I, I think I sense something like that happening right now around SDR function is that they're like, "Oh, SDRs are dead." I'm like, no, they're not.
You're just don't know how to use them properly. And the principles that you spoke about in your text message are, are the way to properly use them. Cause I heard you say. Um, uh, integrate those people's efforts in targeted personalized ways. Don't run SDR in a silo. Align it with your messaging and your marketing. 
You know, anyway, I couldn't agree more.
Lane: And it's also where AI can fit into things. AI is not going to replace that human touch, right? But it might make it a lot more efficient, which would be awesome.
John: That's right. That's right. And, and that's a statement writ large about what I think what we're learning about AI is that it's not, it's not going to kill humanity.
It's going to help us do our jobs better and let us focus on the things that, that, that humans should and can uniquely do. Um, yeah. Okay, good. That was good.
Um, all right. So I want to do a lightning round. Uh, with you a lightning round of questions, I want you to think of this as like a go to market Rorschach test.
Um, you know, what do you think about that? Um, so, uh, I'm going to ask a tight, I'm going to try to ask a tight question and I want you to try to answer it with as, as, as, as close to one sentence as possible. Or even one word, you know, we'll see how it goes. All right, here we go. And by the way, if you want to turn the tables on me sometime, I'll, I'll come to your, I'll come to your podcast or show and you can do the same thing.
All right. Here we go. Are you ready? 
Lane: I'm ready.
John: All right. Here we go. What do most CEOs not get about organic revenue growth?
Lane: That's a really good question. Um, I think it's the impact of. The investments in foundations like enablement ops, et cetera. John: Yeah.
Lane: Rev ops. 
John: One piece of advice for B2B CMOs.
Lane: Track your impact all the way down to revenue.
John: One piece of advice for heads of sales or CSOs.
Lane: Balance your efforts in being in the deals and being in the operating tower.
John: One piece of advice for heads of product. 
Lane: Get in the live fire situations with key customers. 
John: One piece of advice for heads of CS or CX.
Lane: Measure activity. 
John: Of customers? Your customers?
Lane: Mm-Hmm. Customer interactions with your product.
John: Yeah. Your product. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Right. Got it. Um, the fastest way to create no bullshit trust and alignment between head of marketing and head of sales is
Lane: Get everybody in the room at least once a week in an operating cadence.
John: Yeah. Yeah. 
Lane: Everybody meaning sales and sales leaders and marketing leaders. 
John: Right. Does every company. Need a CRO? Every B2B company need a CRO? 
Lane: No. Depending on size, no.
John: Um, what's the absolute most maddening thing, take, you've seen recently about B2B go to market that you just totally disagree with?
Lane: The idea that you could quickly swing things into product led growth.
John: What's the number one work related stress that you deal with?
Carry. 
Lane: Damn. That's a tough one. I could give you one, two, and three, but number one? 
John: Give me one, two, three.
Lane: So I mean, number one is obviously delivering the number. Um, but, but that has to be quickly followed by doing it in a way that. Has long lasting effects, right? So I guess it's really one, one and two. 
It's one and two. You could go for one and destroy your next year. Right? So it's one and two. I don't need a third.
John: Man, you are a kind person to let me run you through that lightning round. You did great. Thank you. That was good. 
Lane: Thanks. Not easy.
John: No, it's not easy. 
Lane: Not easy.
John: All right. So we're almost through the end of our time together.
I want to, I want to sort of pivot. Into a little less of the nerdy go to market business stuff and get in and into more of the human and the personal stuff. Tell me, you're a unique cat, man. Tell me about a job you had as a kid that, that made an impact on you.
Lane: A job that made an impact on me. Um, I mean, I grew up in West Texas and, uh, it's like all oil field. And just, and it's just hot. And so you think summer jobs, right? And I, and I, you know, I have, I remember working, I worked for one of my, one of my daddy's, my dad's buddies that had a, um, that had a, uh, like a gas company. 
And it was just like grunt work around the yard, right? But it was just like hot and, anything that somebody else didn't want to do, like you were doing it. And, um, and, and it wasn't bad. I mean, it was a job, but I, I'll, I'll never forget thinking that, um, you know, I, I, I've moved out of West Texas. I wanted to see some different things. 
And so, like, that wasn't something that I was going to do for a long time. Um, I'll give you another one. Um, the other, I'll give you another one. This is, this may be better material. Wait, hold on, hold
John: on. So you basically, so what I heard you say is you were kind of like a field hand as a kid doing what, you know, that's, and you were, and you looked at yourself and you said, "Yeah, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life." 
Lane: Yeah, that's right.
John: That's an impact. That's an impactful moment in a young man's life.
Lane: Yeah. But you know what else I draw? I draw from, um, I, um, I played a lot of baseball. Um, and, uh, I played like small school college baseball and I draw from the team experiences and, and, and maybe even as much or more so from the good coaches and bad coaches that, that I played for. I can apply that today. Right? To, to what we do.
Um, but I had a job, my high school baseball coach ran like a camp. Um, and, and, you know, it was like, as a high school baseball kid, I coached in this camp, I coached whatever, like 10, 11, 12 year olds. And I, and I had so much fun because I could see the impact of my coaching, like from maybe day, like definitely from day to day, but maybe hour to hour.
And, uh, and I, I know, I just know that that, that impacted me in, in getting into leadership and my, maybe more specifically, sales leadership. Right.
Lane: My favorite, my favorite job ever, I think, in, in my professional career was that first line sales leader. Right. I mean, I love, I've loved every, I love what I do today, but man, if you really get down to it, the ability to like give somebody advice, work a deal, help them to think about a deal and then see them do it and better their professional situation in very short timeframes, that was bad ass to me. 
And it's not that different from coaching, you know? 
John: Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's so good. How old were you when you were, when you were coaching 11 year olds, how old were you?
Lane: I think 17. 17. Okay. Maybe it was, I did a two summers, so it's probably 17 and 18. Yeah.
John: Yeah, man, that is, that, that might be some of the best leadership training a person could get. 
That's awesome. Um, okay. Here's a question. Uh, you're a busy guy. Where do you go? How do you gain skills? How do you learn new things? Where do you go to pick up new skills as a CRO? 
Lane: It's a good, really good question. I mean, obviously talk to to peers. Um, and you know, that's, it's really important. Me and you did that for a while. 
Like, you know, we would, we had a, a monthly thing where you organized a, uh, a monthly gathering of revenue leaders. And, um, and that's always helpful. Um, and so I keep a, a network of those folks and some of them are, you know, some of my buddies are, are CEOs and, but revenue minded CEOs and we, and we have, we wrap, man, it's, it's, it's good. 
Uh, mentors as well. Um, I think that that's really important. Um, and yeah, I mean, and then, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm like in a stage right now where I'm like cranking out reading a lot. It's probably my life's just so busy work and family is we're just in a, in a stage, right? 
John: Right.
Lane: I go, I go horizontal and I'm out, right?
And so there's no picking up a book in bed before bed, right? It's like, get through a half a paragraph. Um, but, uh, but reading, reading is, is key.
John: Yeah. All right. Um, yeah, yeah. It's like an, one of the smartest things I've ever done is to create an informal board of advisors. What do they call them? A kitchen cabinet.
Lane: Um, yeah. 
John: Totally. All right. So you're, you're, you just alluded to this. Your job is crazy. Your schedule is crazy. Um, what have you learned about building and maintaining relationships while having an intense career? And I'm talking about, like, with your partner, with your kids, with your close friends. How do you, uh, how do you navigate that, man? 
Lane: Yeah. I mean, I think that intention is important. And I think that, um, you know, it is, it would be really easy for me to find a reason any night of the week. To go to some thing, right? Whether it's a dinner or an event or a happy hour or I mean, if you're looking for it, you can find it, right? The question is, do you really need to be there? Or, or even a business trip? 
Like I, I can get on a plane. Any day, all day. And I could, I could rationalize that I needed to go do that because I'm, I'm the only one that can do it. And that's, that's actually a crock of shit that you're the only one that can do it. If you, if that is your life, then you should hire some capable people, right?
Because they want that opportunity, right? And, and by the way, they need you to be well rounded. And so I think that there's some intention to it. Um, and I also think that, that, um, that we as, as leaders, we owe it to the folks that we're, we're, you know, leading and that we're kind of embarking on their early professional career. 
We owe it to them to set the right example. You know, that this is life. This is not just like. You know, Oh my gosh, "Lane burns it up all day and doesn't have a life." No, I do actually. And I walk out of the office to go to my kids events. Right. And I'm like, yeah, I'm out. Right. It, yes, it, yes, it is 4:40. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm going to do that. Right. 
John: Yeah. And nobody, I know you, nobody in your world would think, "You know, the thing about Lane Brannan is he just doesn't work hard. Or the thing about Lane is he just doesn't care or it's not committed." Like you are the opposite of those things. And, and I, I sense, I believe I'm sure it's true that you, maybe you're not the perfect family guy, but I bet I hear, I hear you saying that, that you know how to prioritize it.
And I think that's your point about being an example is, is true. It's so good. Um, that's really great, man. Yeah, that's great. Um, yeah. Yeah. Question. What, uh, what advice would you give, I'm going to say 23 year old Lane Brannan. 
Lane: *laughter*
Lane: That's, that's rich, that's rich, 
John: It's a loaded question.
Lane: *more laughter* 
Lane: I would, um, here's the, I've been given this advice and I wish that I would have maybe taken it or gotten it earlier. Um, 23 year old Lane, I had operated, for most of my life at that point and quote unquote won because I like had this chip on my shoulder, right? 
It had it had served me. And, you know, I was I was kind of I was like, you know, I grew up in a smaller city. You know, it was kind of like one dimensional. Um, you kind of had to be, um, an athlete, right? And so, and I was smaller than everybody. And so I, I, I had to like beat, I had to beat somebody out every time I showed up on an athletic field. 
Um, and I did. And it served me. And I carried that into business. And, um, and it actually served me until I was about 30 years old and I had a fantastic - like world class executive coach that was like digging. He was doing that digging thing, right? He's like, "Tell me where this high ambitions from. You think that's a great thing. It might not be. Too much of a good thing might be a bad thing." And I was like, "Oh man, I'll tell you." And, and he goes, "So, uh, so tell me this, like, what, what do you do right now?" And I was like, well, I'm like, at the time I was I'm a Regional VP. "How many people do you lead?" I was like, oh 300. 350 something like that. 
He's like, "Hey man, and how old are you?" And I said, 30 or 31. He's like, "Look man, I think you've made it. I think you're cool. Like, maybe, maybe you can let go of that a little bit, right?" And I, and I think that, um, although it did serve me up to that point, I would have, it would have been, it would, I think I would have been better off, um, maybe, maybe tempering that a little bit. Young, young in my career.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. That's so honest. Um, I'm not much of a golfer, but what I'm hearing you say is like, like you grew up learning how to grab the driver out of the bag and crack that ball, you know. And you're like, you know, at some point I'm going to need to learn how to use a putter. 
Lane: Actually, actually, you just described my current golf game. 
Um, but yeah, that's right.
[Laughter] 
John: Man, I, um, Lane, uh, this has been so fun. I knew it would be. And you are, um, you are really, a pleasure to talk to and I'm, and I'm so lucky to call you a friend and, um, and, uh, and I'm someone who I get to know through the work world. I appreciate you coming on Growth Driver. I really do.
Lane: Hey man, I'm, I'm happy to be here. The feeling's mutual. It's always fun to get together with you and talk about these things that we live. Um, but you're, you know, super cool dude. So that makes it easier to. 
John: Oh, thanks buddy. Hey, how can folks find you if they want to, if they hear this and they're like, "He sounds cool. I want to say hi, or I've got a follow up question." How can folks reach out to you?
Lane: The only social media platform I'm on is LinkedIn.
John: All right, Lane Brannan on LinkedIn. PAX 8. Um, all right, man. How did we do? Any final thoughts? 
Lane: I, you know what? I think we hit on some valuable stuff. I really do. Um, and, and, and just natural conversation, right?
So, yeah, that, that's what you're looking for. Me and you, me and you've been going at this for a while. So, we knew that would happen. It's all good.
John: I know. Yeah. That was my main goal is just to, just to let it rip with you. Cause I know that eventually we'll bump into something cool. I got to tell you your, your four truths and a, and one mantra is real good. 
It's real good, man. I think that was really, it's such a cool. Cool moment. Um, look, you're a busy man. I, I'm going to let you go. Thank you for your time. And, uh, we'll be in touch with, you know, um, a follow up and all that kind of stuff. But, um, man, what a great time with you today. Thank you.
Lane: Yeah, same buddy. 
All right. Be good. Thanks, John. Thanks everyone.
John: Man. Uh, that was great. Lane, I'm so thankful to know him. Um, he really is one of, uh, Lane really is one of the better CROs I have ever seen. And hopefully you got a sense of that in our conversation. We just had a couple of things that just, I don't know, I'm just reflecting on here. 
Um, I loved when he talked about not having a rigid playbook. As a CRO, I think that is so smart. But if you, if you, if you listen, let, you know, soon after he said that he and I talked about the fact that he does, I think, have, um, guiding principles that he uses multiple times because they're, and he called it pattern recognition. 
I think, I think there's something really deep and smart about that. I loved how we talked about, uh, being a CRO is walking a daily tightrope that is such a kind of visceral, um, metaphor for, for what he does. How can I not talk about the framework? How about that? Four truths and one mantra. Seriously, that is, uh, who knows that might be his book one day. 
Um, I thought that was fantastic. I thought it was hilarious. The text message he talked about, um, that asked, uh, are you experiencing a secular decline in the SDR function? And, uh, his answer was fantastic. I happen to agree with his answer. Um, and then just kind of some, some of the. Human stuff, uh, the lightning round.
I loved his answers. Uh, I asked him, you know, basically, what, what piece of advice do you have for CEOs, for CMOs, for Heads of Sales, for Heads of Product, for Heads of CSS? Um, I thought that was, I thought it was so cool to ask each of those. And you could tell that he, he got quiet and really thought about each of those moments. 
I thought that was really cool. I was kind of on the edge of my seat. I was like, what the hell is he going to say? Um, and then, I don't know, just, uh, kind of some of the human part, the part about, you know, how do you, how do you maintain work life balance or integration or whatever your buzzword. It really resonated with me.
I have to do better at that. For sure. I totally have to do a better job of that in my own life. But, uh, his, his advice about being intentional with your time and, and pausing before you automatically say yes to every trip, to every event.
And then I really loved how he said, and by the way, I don't have to go to everything.
And not only that, I want to be a good model for my team and not make them think that they have to do everything. And ruin their personal life potentially.
And then the last thing he said is, "When I don't go, with intention, I'm giving my team an opportunity to step in and step up and experience. And I think that's just the super smart, super smart. 
I, uh, I really enjoyed that conversation with Lane Brannan and I hope you did too. I want to thank you for spending some of your time with me today. Um, I don't know if you can tell, we're really trying to build something special, uh, here with Growth Driver, uh, for you for. For B2B growth leaders and their teams.
That's what this whole thing is about. That's what it's for. Um, and look, if you enjoy what we're trying to do here, if you like what we're up to, uh, make sure you follow us, subscribe, you're smart, you know, what the hell is up. Pick your channel, pick your platform. Uh, uh, we would so appreciate you being connected with us. 
Also, I want you to feel free to reach out to me directly on LinkedIn. John Common. Just search for John Common Intelligent Demand, John Common Growth Driver. Uh, I would love to hear your thoughts about ideas for guests, uh, show ideas, topics you want us to dig into, questions you want us to, answer for you. We are here for you. I also want to give a big shout out to the Growth Driver team. 
Brianna, Jeremy, Doug, Ben, Josh, and also my co-hosts, Mike and Anne-Marie. Takes a team to pull this off, trust me. Uh, and you everyone, you are all awesome. 
Uh, last thing you need to know. Growth Driver is brought to you by the talented and kind people at Intelligent Demand. Look, if you're a B2B CMO, CRO, VP, working toward a growth goal, that is no joke, and you need an expert partner, I want you to check them out at IntelligentDemand.com. And that does it for me. Have a good day, have a good night, and I will see you soon. Bye everybody.