The Financial Impact of Empathetic Leadership with Helen Fanucci

Helen Fanucci: Top talent will not stay on your team. Um, if you don't address lower performing individuals, people want to be part of a winning team. Welcome to growth

John Common: driver brought to you by intelligent demand, where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Welcome to growth driver. I'm your host. And today we are talking about the direct connection between consistent empathetic leadership practice practices with the emphasis being on consistent and revenue growth.

So the pressure on leaders to perform today is higher than ever. Timing is faster. Resources and time are limited and it can often feel like a battle between hitting those revenue growth goals. or emphasizing the empathetic leadership practices. But in a world where our talent can work for anyone, anywhere, the empathetic leadership is what will drive your team towards engagement, accountability, and success.

And if you are looking for someone who knows how to turn that theory into practice without sacrificing accountability and outcomes, it is our guest today, Helen Fanucci. Helen, welcome to Growth Driver. 

Helen Fanucci: Oh, thank you for having me. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Now we're so excited to have you. I, uh, before we jump in, cause I have so many questions ready for us.

I would love to take a minute and tell all of our listeners a little bit about your background because it is nothing short of amazing. So if you don't know Helen, she is an MIT trained engineer who has spent 25 years on the front lines leading high performing sales teams that were responsible for.

Billions of dollars in revenue at top tech companies that you might have heard of, such as Apple, IBM, and Microsoft. She took all of those lessons that she learned and turned them into a best selling book called Love Your Team, which we will definitely talk about in a bit. She's also an advocate for and investor in early stage female founded companies and is an associate producer for the Show Her The Money, which highlights the fact that Female entrepreneurs receive only 2 percent of the funding, despite having a strong track, stronger track record of results.

And if all of that isn't enough, Helen is also the founder and CEO of pipeline power. ai, which helps B2B companies accelerate revenue, growth, and growth. by utilizing AI and cutting edge B2B capabilities. That is a whole other episode. Helen, we will have you back on to learn all about the work that you're doing there, but we're excited to dive in and talk about leadership here.

I know you have so many wonderful, amazing examples. Um, I love throughout your book, you tell so many personal stories of your own growth and journey. Um, But as we're talking about empathetic leadership here today, before we jump into all those, I'd love for you to give us, you know, what is your definition of empathetic leadership and what are some of the, the statistics or the facts that you've seen about how this type of leadership leads directly into growth and success for an organization?

Helen Fanucci: Yeah, great question. So I think about empathetic leadership is really, um, kind of walking in your team's shoes and making it personal. So understanding what an individual team member cares about and figuring out what you can do to help support them and their goals. And so, um, it, it's not all puppies and roses.

It's also being really clear about expectations. So I know we'll get into the details more, but it is critical that team members feel supported. They feel that they can trust you. And, um, what ends up happening is you end up having a higher performing team. And so consider this top talent will not stay on your team if you don't address lower performing individuals.

People want to be part of a winning team. And so there's a pragmatic element to this, not only overachieving, but also being able to retain your top talent. And if you think about the cost, of losing top talent. If you're a sales manager and your top talent walks out the door, let's say they have a million dollar quota.

It might take three months to replace them and another six months to bring them up to full strength. You literally can't. Make your number as a manager if you can't retain your talent because that could be seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars That's at risk if your top seller walks out the door So that's one example of the cost but there's emotional costs and there's other costs as well.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, absolutely Yeah to see to see a top performer walk out the door There's usually some sort of a waterfall effect that we see behind it as well, too So there's there's a larger cost of turnover potentially. Yeah Good point. I, uh, I love you mentioned, you know, building trust as a key principle of this and it's not the first time we've heard trust as a foundational, um, way of having a high functioning team.

Right? There's the, um, the five dysfunctions of a team. It's right at the bottom of the pyramid. So there's a reason that's consistently. Brought up, and I think I, in one of our previous conversations, you mentioned that, um, trust is the currency of business. And I, I love that that stuck with me since I heard you say that.

And, um, you mentioned in your book that that trust is essential for your team to feel safe and calm, which I really love. 'cause the idea of being safe and calm is, is when you're gonna perform. It's when your, your basic needs are met. So talk a little bit about, if you will, um. Um, new leaders coming in, maybe taking over a team or stepping into leadership at a higher level than they're used to, what, what are the principles of empathetic leadership that can help expedite building that trust?

How can a leader step in and start to form trust? It takes time, but yeah. 

Helen Fanucci: Yeah. So the first thing a leader will typically do is they'll introduce themselves to their new team. And that's the first moment to start building trust. And I've seen many leaders, very senior leaders, And what I mean by that is they think it's about them and how great they are that they got this job, but it's actually about the team.

It's an opportunity for a leader to start building a foundation and communicate to the team what they can expect of them. what their values are, how they like to be communicated with. And, um, so what I do is I cover, um, kind of my leadership principles and, uh, how, uh, the next month is going to go. So I'll set up a one on one with everyone on my team, assuming my direct reports are not 500, if it's It's, you know, 20 or less.

I think that's a reasonable thing to do. And then it's about getting to know them. And I make the first meeting just asking them a little bit about themselves and their career and where they see themselves going in their career and, um, if there's anything I should know and be aware of. And most importantly, I think is how can I support them and their success.

So that they can have, um, the outcome they're looking for. And many, many times their goals are bigger than just delivering on the revenue this year could be getting promoted. I had somebody that wanted to move from India to the U S. There's a lot of different, you know, ways that could go. Somebody else, you know, might say, Hey, I had to drop, I need to drop my kids off at eight in the morning.

Can we not have 8 a. m. TV meetings or things like that? Um, and it starts to, it starts to convey that you're caring about what The needs are what matters to your team members and beginning to try to figure out how to support them on their goals. And so, you know, and then later on, you know, subsequent meetings will get more into the business things on.

And there might be some urgent things, of course, but it's an opportunity for leaders to begin to build a foundation and convey that they're there to support the team. And it could also be leaders need to just. Reduce sales friction, give them permission not to do some of the corporate admin functions, or, you know, other things that might be, um, not working well for the team to perform.

And if you start doing that and delivering, uh, over time, your team starts to trust you and believe that you really do have their back and their life is better working for you than 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. Yeah. I, you hit on so many things. I, I want to have so many follow up questions on this because I think the, the one on ones is so key and I, you know, I think as we get busy and client needs come up, one on ones can easily be the first thing that slide off of a calendar, but they've having them as a priority really shows that dedication as a leader.

to your team. Are there standard one on one questions? Is there something you kind of ask every week or every month to, to measure how those conversations are going? 

Helen Fanucci: Yes. So first of all, I make the, I give them the responsibility of specifying their agenda. So I don't, you know, I'll have, I'll make some notes to myself about things I want to chat about, but I first and foremost make it their agenda.

So if you look at, um, like a team of 12 people and you do every other week for a half hour, you do a one on one with them, each of them, and then you have, you know, monthly forecast calls, maybe that's every other week as well, or every week. You're only, Committing about 15 percent of your time to those one on ones and those standard kind of forecast calls.

And I've heard so many managers say, I don't have time to meet with everyone one on one. And I can't, like, my thought is, if you're not doing it, Doing that. What are you spending your time on because the team are the actors and the performers and they actually amplify and deliver the success. It's if a manager is jumping in and doing things on behalf of their team.

Now you might need to do that from time to time for different reasons. But if they're taking like the big executive meetings, I don't think that's a good idea because You're limiting the opportunity for your team to grow and learn, make them the focal point, and then if they just can do more and more, it really amplifies and grows.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes, it's such a good point. I love to put it in perspective of it's 15 percent of your time and you get exponential output from it too. We, um, at ID, we love to use the image of a flywheel. It's like, you have to keep that momentum going over and over to get a much bigger output all the time, but it takes a lot of that consistent, um, effort to keep it, to keep it going.

And then you get so much more for it. Um, You've mentioned a couple times getting to know people's values and I, I think that's such an important point because, um, I, I think most people are in their job hopefully because they love what they do and they feel fulfilled, but it's also because they have a whole life outside of those, you know, the Zoom walls that we live in these days.

So, um, as you talk about values, how are you, how do you help to connect the, a person's purpose to the work that they do? How do you help them to feel like this by Fulfilling these expectations, holding yourself accountable is going back into the purpose that's driving you to be here. 

Helen Fanucci: Yeah. So that's an interesting question.

So on the, so let me preface by saying that think about your employees, not as them working for the company and working for you, but think about. The company working for them and you working for them that they're your customer. And the reason I say it and I frame it that way is because if they feel like they're doing a job and working for the company, then they're, they're at risk of leaving.

But if they see how the company's goals. Opportunities really work for them in their life. They're much more apt to stay. And so how can you connect what the company's ambition is, you know, what, what the company's successes to Their success and have it work for them So I gave you the example about the employee that wanted to move to the states and another that got promoted Those were things that we worked on together to help them reach their goals Um, and i've had employees too that go you know what, I just want to make as much money as I can and kill my quota and do really well I I got a lot going on and I just want to stay focused on doing this really well and that's fine too.

But once you understand what the broader why behind your employee Working in that job and also for that company um for that company, then you can understand kind of how you can connect more things. Um, I just recently read a stat that one of the biggest dissatisfiers for employees right now is not understanding how the changes that are happening, because more and more it's expected of everyone, things are changing rapidly.

The, the more that That change is explained about how it impacts the employee, their work, and the context for it, the much happier and more satisfied they are. So don't ever forget the why behind something. Hey, we're doing this. is, and here's why, and here's what I need from you, and, you know, are there questions or concerns?

Let's talk about it, because it's, you know, it's not a democracy, um, at the end of the day, there's work that needs to be done, and if the company decides, hey, we're going to go over here and just focus on AI, it might mean that One, some people lose their jobs, which is always tough, particularly with all the layoffs that we've seen in tech in particular, but it also, um, may mean that there's new opportunities to expand and do different things.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, it's such a good, such a good point to talk about that. Oftentimes with leaders, we were in these meetings for a long time before we roll out a change. And so it's not new to us, but that employee is hearing that for the first time and remembering what that felt like when we heard it for the first time, how do we help them to be an early adopter to the change?

And I know you talk a lot about the changing world of work moving from we were all in person to hybrid to fully remote in some cases and the level of intentionality that needs to go into that communication just goes up higher and higher when you don't pass each other in the hall anymore. Um, you forget who you didn't see and who you didn't communicate with and so I I think it's a really good point that the understanding and the why behind the business decisions is so important for that person to feel like they're, they're a part of it.

They're part of that decision making, um, and they can impact the success of the company. So I think that's a really good, that's a really good point. I like that. Um, I think it goes back to your point too, and about, um, your key principles around it. So you said trust, transparency, and care are the key principles for Love Your Team.

Um, and care is what I'm hearing pretty consistently. It's that, what you mentioned, it's the, the give a damn factor. Like you have to care about your team in order for them to care about their job and stay connected. Um, how, how do you, how do you kind of balance some of that? I think one thing I see.

struggle with, especially as I think we've become a world that cares about the person as a person first, like there's life outside of work. That's complicating things. There's difficult situations that we're all dealing with. And you talk a lot about being flexible and holding an employee accountable as a leader who cares about your person.

You care about their, their expect, or the. As a leader who cares about your person, you care about their life and what they're going through and there's that accountability at the other end. How do you work with them to make sure there's a balance between those two things? 

Helen Fanucci: I actually think caring and also holding people accountable are compatible ideas.

I don't see them as polar opposites. Um, it's so critical that a leader is clear about what they expect from their team. And I always like to say out, um, kind of To create performance expectations, outcome based performance expectations, and that's where those people are in the office or elsewhere because you probably have expectations on revenue and quota, but those are lagging indicators of success.

So what what expectations do you have? It could be, you know, set 10 new That's Uh, appointments a week or a month have a pipeline that is five times your revenue target in a given quarter. There's probably expectations along those lines, sort of concrete, this is what's expected. Then there will be a bunch of expectations that you have that are not stated often until there's an issue.

And so let me give you some examples. So I always have cultural expectations and I try to be as clear about them as I can and consistent with the company I'm working for. For example, I expect a seller to be able to work well across the extended team because often while the seller's on the front line, whatever they're doing and interacting with a customer, they probably need product managers or finance for financial concessions or what have you.

They need people around in the company that support their efforts. It's a I'm guessing because no one sells in a vacuum. So if they can't work well, then that's a problem. Even if they can over achieve revenue targets, there's still, um, I kind of like say no jerks allowed. I don't usually say it in those terms, but you get my idea.

And then I end up putting them on a performance plan for their, for, um, being able to. to demonstrate better cultural, um, values such as respect. I ask them, have you ever asked these other people, uh, what they care about and how you can work more effectively with them and how you can support them in doing their job?

And what I have. Found is often sellers aren't all good or all bad, but there's skills in there that you You need to nip in the bud so to speak when you Identify something that you go, Oh, this isn't quite right and have a conversation and kind of dig into it and get curious. And so holding people accountable, but also giving them an opportunity to improve and supporting their improvement by it could be Giving them ideas, um, checkpointing, having clear, you know, we've probably all done performance improvement plans, but I see one way managers get, um, in trouble is they don't address performance gaps.

And then it kind of spins out of control and they're frustrated and angry and they just wish that the person would leave. But they've never really had the kind of straight up conversation. And it doesn't have to be this big, you know, emotionally difficult thing. It's just like, hey, here's the goals I have and, you know, for you and you're not doing this.

And, um, we need to get you back on track. And, you know, I'd like you to create a plan on how you plan to get back on track over the next month or, and then we'll meet every week and maybe you have to, augment that with your ideas because they might not come up with things that you're happy with. Or you might say, like the example I gave you, you know, I realized I wasn't explicitly clear that I expect you to be able to get along with all of the, your co workers, but that's become a problem.

And so I need you to demonstrate respect, kindness, Find ways to build trust. I need you to be able to be the kind of person others want to work with. How can we accomplish that? 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, I, I was absolutely going to ask you about this because I love when you talk about, uh, the outcome, uh, the performance outcome.

Based, um, the outcome based performance expectations that you said. They are both about the hard numbers, the revenue, the numbers of meetings, things that you can actually quantify. Um, but there's the qualifying side of it as well too. And I, I agree. I think it's equally, not I think, it is equally as important to measure both, but sometimes it's harder to measure what is, what does that look like if you now are respectful or you now have the trust of your team.

And sometimes I think leaders have a hard time putting, having those conversations because it can't be a number based approach. Um, outcome. It's gotta be, well, I'm getting more feedback from other team members or your team is working more effectively and those, those outcomes then impact the numbers that you can measure in the end.

But it's, it's harder to have those conversations about the, the respect or the leadership or the trust across the team and, um, and it's, it's so important for, for teams to be successful in that too. Um, 

Helen Fanucci: yeah. So one of the, I did a couple, one of the things I did is I said, look, I'm going to be asking. Other managers whose team members are working with you for feedback.

Um, so I'm going to get their feedback. The other thing too is I communicated the consequence of them not being like kind of the opportunity cost of them not being able to work effectively. And I said, I need you to focus on getting higher. Um, in the your customers organization and meet with senior leaders rather than being on top of the product sales person and being in all their meetings, you've got to trust that they're going to do what they need to do.

So that will free you up to do these other things because often leaders don't communicate or maybe they don't recognize that opportunity costs. Of a team not working well together. You're actually limiting your revenue potential And so I tried to make it as concrete and give that person Some specific things that they could do differently And I literally told them do not be in product meetings.

Let your product salesperson, um, run with that and have a connection point to debrief, but you've got to stop micromanaging them. And, um, and it's hard. Behavior change is hard. That person needed to change how they were treating others. Otherwise it just wasn't workable. To have them continue in that role.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. I, I, I think it's such a good point to, to show that there is, there is a cost associated with those behaviors that aren't reflecting the values of the companies and of the team. And it isn't a revenue loss because it is, it will just spiral for the whole rest of the day, if we're mad at that one person from that one meeting versus.

being able to have a conversation, course correct the way that we're working together and interacting with each other and then go on to be that cohesive team again. Uh, there is absolutely a cost associated with it. So I think that's, that's such a good point to be able to tie back in. If, if a leader is not sure how to have this conversation, tying it back into the, Business objectives helps to take some of that energy off of it and, and put it back into the, here's the goal we're all working towards.

So let's, let's get on that track together. I think that's, that's such an excellent point. Growth 

John Common: goals are tough to hit. I know it, you know it, and the kind people in intelligent demand know it too. That's why they have a team of experts across media, content, creative, rev ops, and strategy who know how to work together and with you to crush your revenue growth goals.

Reach out to him at intelligentdemand. com. Schedule a free consult. Talk some shop. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: I'd love to dig in a bit more on some of these difficult conversations, because I think no matter what level a leader is at. conversations can be hard, giving feedback and having, if you haven't had those very clear expectation settings conversations early, and now you're having to kind of go back and say, okay, we've got to talk about why things are being missed, but maybe you didn't understand what that initial expectation was.

So how, how, how do you help a manager? Be the leader. If they haven't maybe set up the accountability early and they gotta go back and reset expectations, what are some of the, the coaching tips that you give a leader to go in to maybe rebuild that connection and, and establish those expectations? 

Helen Fanucci: Um, first of all, I think the leader needs to apologize for not being clear or say, you know, gosh, I just realized that there's probably some confusion here as to what I expect.

And I totally take responsibility for that, but I want to kind of reset and make sure that we're on the same page and then literally. Line out, you know, what those expectations are and follow up in an email or if you have a, uh, goals document in your goal document, but take accountability for the gap, the communication gap and then go in and make sure that The person understands the expectations and then it's also an opportunity for the leader to say look Um, you know what i'm seeing is this and and not this and so right now i'm seeing a gap And it could be because you didn't understand the expectation um, or or You could ask them, you know, are there things that you could do or that you're seeing that I'm not seeing that closes the gap or what have you, or, um, do you see it this way or how do you see it, you know, kind of open ended.

So you're getting their feedback, but you're also being clear on the expectations. And then you also I think need to get a commitment that look, this is what. I expect moving forward and I want to start touching base with you every week, or maybe it's still every other week. Um, but I'd like you to send me.

you know, a weekly email and tell me what you've done or whatever the frequency is, that's right for the situation, but you've got to go in and reset it and then give them an opportunity to say they're part of it, but also an opportunity to perform. And I know that most managers think that if someone is on an official performance improvement plan, that that means that they're headed out the door.

Most employees think that, but I've actually seen employees be able to recover and perform and raise their performance and address the gap. Uh, so it's not, A hundred percent. Meaning that if employee employee's not performing, that they're out the door. But it happens more often than not, that it's not the right fit job.

So they leave the job or leave the company and it might be that you have to fire them for cause. And I've done that as well. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, I think I like your point. And it's a really good reminder that if for whatever the company calls it, the performance improvement plan, it's exactly that. It's a goal to improve the performance.

It's not just about. heading someone out the door. But again, if you tie it back to the company values of hopefully being respectful, being maybe authentic in the conversation that we're giving that person a chance to show that they are able to hit those expectations and that in turn we can show that we've been clear about the expectations too, uh, and given them the chance to make sure that they are connecting back to what, what they've been told, what the What the conversations have been about, but sometimes it's, it's hard, it's easier to see that as a way out the door versus a way to really invest in that employee.

And hopefully employees see that when their manager truly is investing in their development as well, too. 

Helen Fanucci: Yeah. And there may be cases where, gosh, the house is on fire, so to speak, and you need the employee to step up right away. So there might be a daily check in. And like, look, you need to. You know, talk to 10 new customers or prospects today, have 10 conversations and set three meetings.

And that needs to happen every day. And it, it, it also, it kind of depends on the level of the person, how strategic, you know, and long term your sales cycle versus, okay, this is what we've got to accomplish today in this week. Um, It probably won't go too long of a time frame without if someone's really not performing and you have an urgent kind of timeline, I mean, I would think a manager would address that within, you know, a couple weeks or something like that.

If there's they see that gap happening, I would hope that they would. So you've got a, like every, every company situations different. I mean, I've spent most of my career in large tech companies and that's vastly different than school. Scrappy, smaller companies that really need to, you know, deliver revenue month after month in a way that's consistent and has, uh, Expectations for employees, for sellers in particular, to generate new business.

So context matters here in the environment. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I think it goes back to your point about setting expectations when you walk in the door as a leader. What, what is that environment you're stepping into? What type of team are you taking on? Uh, yeah. Is it a small company and it's much more hands on?

Do you have a large team that you're leading? So there's. So much context and expectation from the very beginning that is helpful to set people up for success. Um, on that note, I want to go back. You mentioned it kind of towards the beginning about, um, a new leader coming in, taking on a new team, and botching it because they maybe see it about themselves, being this new leader, and I, I want to, And I bring this up because I've seen this happen often where someone is brought in and it's their first time leading at that level and they do have, I think most leaders when you're hired, it's because the company says, we trust you.

We believe in you. You can do this. Here's these big goals and expectations go and, and they feel that that pressure to succeed right out the gate. And so it becomes about them, a new leader coming in, taking on a new team, maybe in that situation. What advice do you give them to maybe manage up and set expectations for the leader above them so that The leader, the leader's leader expectations are clear so they can really step in and build that trust for their team while they are still trying to prove themselves in their own role.

Helen Fanucci: I think it's really the same as I said before. So one of the examples is a leader came in and had a team of 800 people and in my view botched it because they thought it was all about them. And I think, um, I think it wasn't so much that they needed to manage up because that higher level manager trusted them, brought them in.

It was more they needed to get their house in order in terms of what their process was going to be, their rhythm of the business, if you will, in terms of reviewing the business and also being, um, thoughtful about what they care about and how they were going to operate. And it might be that that some of those things were new muscles for them because you know, they hadn't managed such a big team in the past like they were they had a new role, but I think the the fundamentals of management are pretty consistent.

And so, yes, I didn't expect that leader to have a one on one with me, had a team of 800 people, but I did expect some kind of, um, communication as to, you know, how he wanted to be communicated with, who we should go to if we needed his help with something, because I had. You know, we all had very large quotas, and sometimes we needed to have, uh, support from him.

So, I do think that being really clear, and it might be that, look, I just, you know, I'm still trying to figure this out. I'm brand new in this role. You know, in this and new to the company. So give me 30 days. Here's what I'm going to be focused on. In the meantime, talk to your manager. And if you need something, I'm going to ask that the managers or the directors or what the VPs under, you know, him or her, you know, be accountable for taking the requests and then feeding them up to him or her.

So. I think it can still work with what I said before in terms of how they communicate, but also off, but the size and scale is probably. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, I want to jump on a point that you made there, which I think is maybe easier said than done for some, depending on where you are in your career. Um, but the, the point about being vulnerable and being able to say, I'm, I'm still learning, I'm figuring this out.

Um, Where, where do you learn that? How do you get to a point in your career where you can, as a leader, you can, you can say that to your team or to your management team of like, Hey, I still need a minute to, to get to where I need to go. Um, that's hard when you have big expectations on your shoulders. 

Helen Fanucci: Well, one of the things you might do is say, look, we're all human here.

I get that we're all doing our best. And um, you know, if, if something happens and you do something that you're not, you know, that. Might be, um, viewed as not the best thing to do, please let us know right away and I'll tell you that I'm working, you know, I'll, I'll do the same if I end up as I'm getting into my new role, if I need, I need a little extra time here so I can get the lay of the land, but I want to make sure that we have a two way communication channel and it depends, you know, how that what, you know, obviously the size and scope of the organization, but I think.

The reality is we're all human beings. We all have vulnerabilities. And this whole idea of a manager and leader with, um, armor on and they're infallible is such crap. And I actually think everyone knows it. So, maybe it's a way to crack the ice, so to speak.

Um, let's make sure that we're keeping communication channels open. And as I ramp up, I'm going to be relying on so and so and my direct reports. Um, I don't know, there might be a number of ways to do it, but I think, gosh, I hope the days of Teflon leadership are gone where people feel like they have to be some image without the humanists.

One of the points I also want to make is, you know, I talk about building trust with my team, and I think leaders need to do that at every level. The reality is we're expecting our sellers to be able to build trust with prospects and customers. Because, as I said to you in, um, when we spoke last time, the currency of business, B2B business, is trust.

A company's not going to buy stuff from you, particularly if it's, high risk, high value, dollar value, unless they feel like they can trust the seller, but also trust the organization to deliver. So we're all in this trust game together. And I think modeling that for the team makes a difference in terms of them being able to model it to customers.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Hmm. Yes. I, I love your point about that because I do feel like when you observe behavior, even if it's not just spoken to you, but you're just, you're observing how a leader responds to you. You're going to learn those lessons and then take them outside to the customer and, and have those more authentic conversations and know how to handle the difficult situations when you've seen it done to you and you've.

You just put it in your back pocket. I think that so much of the things that I've learned in being a leader was cause I just observed them and you know, I didn't necessarily read it or someone didn't say, Hey, here's how you go do it. But I just saw how a leader led that I appreciated. And that was the person I wanted to show up as.

And I think you're right. That the way you lead your team is how they will lead your, their customers and their clients. And it's that authentic conversation that, um, that doesn't, doesn't Um, it can be easy once you feel comfortable doing it, but it can be hard at times when I know that, you know, our folks, they're supposed to be the experts in the room at all times.

Like, you know, customers hire us to be experts and to be advisors and, and we do our absolute best. But sometimes we have to have that moment of, let me just be a person here. And then that builds that trust and that connection that, that we all get to share. I, I think the modeling of the behavior is super, super important that I appreciate you bringing up that point.

Helen Fanucci: Yeah, and if you don't know something, go, you know what, um, let me get back to you. And ironically, the data shows that if a company screws up and creates dissatisfaction, but they handle it in a great way, that customer is actually more satisfied than if the screw up never happened. Now, I'm not saying intentionally screw up, but, um, Yeah.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if you do, how to handle it is, is really what's going to matter in the end. That matters. Yeah. That's so great. I, you know, a lot of the conversation we had so far has talked a bit about, um, discussing, you know, expectations and talking to employees that maybe aren't hitting those, those expectations and those difficult conversations.

But, uh, one thing that. Um, that you've talked about too, and I think it's also an important point is having these same types of conversations with, um, with some of your high performers to help them because there's you want them to still have expectations and goals that they're they're reaching for and that they're they're stepping into those next steps.

Um, And I, I wonder how, how do you use some of these principles in the high performer situation? What kind of conversations do you have with your team? Obviously connecting to values, but how do you help that high performer? Have the conversations that you're stretching them to that next level too. 

Helen Fanucci: Yeah, that's a great question.

So, um, Let me give you some examples. Um, I expect the sellers on my team to do the whole job meaning Be able to converse with executives, customer executives, internal, if you're in a big company, internal Microsoft executives. So one of the things, for example, if you have an important meeting, let's say they're doing a business review or they're meeting a chief revenue officer for the first time, if the seller can get that meeting.

If they can't get a meeting with the chief revenue officer or chief financial officer, and that's an important role, then enlist. Then that's where I step in and I say, Hey, how about we have our chief financial officer meet with them and you're in the room and it's kind of a peer to peer discussion. So I call it bait in the bucket, you know, cause sometimes titles really matter.

Cause. Senior executives often, uh, have the perception and reality, um, is often true that they don't feel they'll get value from the seller. So what I'll do with the top performers, I will, um, usually review, have them review what their, their agenda, how they see the meeting going, give them feedback, but I have them in the room.

I don't take that meeting. They're in the room or. In the, for in the screen, you know, the zoom or teams call with the executive and because they have to take the action items and whatnot. Um, if we're doing something where we have a complex sale, like, you know, we had, I had customers that were super big in the fortune.

And when we did these big, this was at Microsoft, when we did these big complex deals, often there were certain concessions or out of the norm considerations that we gave them. And so the seller had to ask for either, Discounts or more implementation resources or various things so we could get the deal done well, that goes up to the senior executive within Microsoft.

So this is now within the company, and I always had my seller. Do that presentation and go through it and justify it now. I was in the background. I was on the call. I turned my camera off. I would take notes for the seller because I want them present. I want them not to have to worry about action items.

And then it gave me the opportunity to debrief with them. So we prepare ahead of time. I'd review. All the stuff and then we would debrief and it gave the seller visibility so that they ended up having, um, the ability to connect more within the company and also represent their customer to our executive team and.

I think that that kind of thing then, it, it helps them get promoted, it helps me justify why they're ready to get promoted. There's visibility, so people go, oh yeah, yeah, they're great, they should be promoted. And so there's a lot of kind of synergic, synergistic things that can happen. And you've gotta, Those are examples of how I would support top performers in their role and, um, not make it about me or take the limelight off of them.

Um, and so that's, that was super effective in having them felt, feel supported and also, um, More, I would say, effective in their role because, you know, some, for some of them, that was the first time they'd had those kind of executive meetings before. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Hmm. Yeah. I would guess that could be intimidating to walk into that kind of a room and be selling to a fortune 50 company and representing a big name like Microsoft too.

I, I like your point too. I think the, the role of a leader often is about removing barriers. For someone, um, making sure that you're recognizing a high performer, but what, what can you take off of their plate that makes them more effective at their role that maybe they just can't remove themselves? I think that's such a good point of what the role of a leader really getting to know your people and understanding what they, what their needs are.

Helen Fanucci: Yeah, sometimes they can delegate part of it to an extended team. Mike, if. If you have multiple sellers and, you know, one person's trying to do it all. Sometimes they can delegate it. Um, I have from time to time updated sales, you know, uh, CRM systems on behalf of my sellers, cause I needed to get the forecast in and I knew the status.

Because I had regular one on ones and also sometimes like on these prep meetings. I knew the status right and so I would let them know I would let my team know look, you may notice that I'll go in and update CRM statuses to keep things up to date. It's, um, I do it for to be expeditious and if you don't want me to do that from time to time, you need to make sure that your stuff is up to date, um, because I have a deadline and I've got to get the forecast in and all the supporting data needs to be there and, um, so if I know the status, otherwise, I'll I'm bird, bird dog them for it.

Um, but, uh, no one really likes that either. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. Right. But I, I mean, even that goes back to the why, right? So it's not, it makes it clear to them. It's not me micromanaging you or not trusting you. It's just, I have this deadline that I need to go in and do this. Here's my why behind doing it. It's, I fully trust you and you're capable, but.

But let me explain that and again, it goes back to that, that person feeling valued for who they are. 

Helen Fanucci: And I, you know, I, no one likes CRM, so it's, it's, I won't let that, I won't be their crutch, but sometimes I just, yeah, 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: be expeditious. You're like, I'm just trying to go sell. I'm just trying to be out there.

Yeah. Um, sticking a little bit on the topic of, of some high performers and conversations, I'm sure you've had, but would love an example of having a conversation with a top performer that doing great in their job, you know, they're going to go places with your company and maybe they think they're further along.

in their career than they are. And they're, they're wanting to go for a promotion or they're wanting more responsibility, but you know, they need a bit more time and a bit more practice before they can step into that role. Those are, those are sometimes hard conversations to have as well, cause you want them to feel valued and respected, but you know, that's not the next step for them yet.

Um, Have you had those conversations and what how do you approach those? 

Helen Fanucci: Yes, and in fact, I think at least one of them is in my book so There's a couple that come to mind one person Felt like they were ready for a promotion and I didn't I didn't think so. And also just to be frank, I, they'd only worked for me maybe four or five months, something like that.

And so what that person did is they took the initiative and asked me if we could meet every week because they wanted to make sure that I was. More informed about what they were actually doing and that, um, we got to know each other better and that I could ask, you know, ask questions because I would say like, I don't see it.

Here's where I see the gap. And they're like, well, I really feel like I'm doing that. I go, well, I don't. And so they, so over time, um, it didn't happen right away. Maybe six months or so over time. Yeah. Um, I ended up agreeing and put them in for a promotion. Um, another example, this was actually a technical seller on my team and he felt that he was

Influencing the customer and helping with technical strategy and being a technical advisor. And I didn't see that either. And so, um, what he ended up doing is he ended up putting together for me his, kind of his body of work of what he'd been doing over the last several years. You know, a few months and what I realized in that is, even though we had regular one on ones, we weren't really getting to the heart of the work, some of the work he was really doing, and he was doing more and just taking care of a bunch of stuff, but it wasn't visible to me.

And so, um, you know, he, you know, we had lots of, a number of conversations and he actually provided me with. Lots of stuff that I went through and we had conversations about and then I could see, oh yeah, I was wrong. I didn't realize that you had been doing all these things and it was kind of like a learning for me to to say, you know what, um, even though we've had these one on ones, I didn't really get it.

And, you know, that's my feeling. And, um, I agree with you and I'll put you in for a promotion. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: That's such a great example. I, I love so many different parts of that one with the, the employee recognizing like, Oh, I have a responsibility to make sure that my manager does see the work that I'm doing. Let me, let me make sure that, that I'm available and visible to you.

And then to your point about that leader being. the leader being you in this one, but, but being vulnerable and saying, Oh, okay, there were things that I didn't realize were going on. And I think it ties into the remote and hybrid conversation again of just, we don't see each other every day. So how are we using that time to communicate effectively and show what needs to be shown and communicate the way we need to, because it's, it's really easy for those moments to get missed between manager and, in their direct report.

Helen Fanucci: Yeah. And even if you're co located. Customers are all over the place, particularly if you're selling to, you know, fortune 50 companies, decision makers are all over the place and well, um, your company might not, might be back to the office or might not be a lot of customers aren't back to the office. And so it becomes trickier for everybody to kind of be in the same room on the same page, so to speak.

So yeah, it, the skills. are fundamental, um, whether you're in the office or remote. It's trickier when you're remote, I think, um, to make sure that everyone's communicating. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, because sometimes communication only happens when something is missed. It's not always communicated when things are going well, and those moments can get missed easily as well.

Right, 

Helen Fanucci: right. Yeah, good point. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Ellen, this has been absolutely wonderful. I so appreciate your time. Um, one thing I've really appreciated about the conversations with you and in your book especially is just the turning theory and ideas into practical ways of implementing leadership styles and implementing leadership practices that anyone can do in their next one on one that you can do in your next conversation with your employee or with your leaders.

Um, because sometimes those. It just takes those couple little moments of insights into knowing what we can do better in the moment with our people. Um, I'd love to ask you a question about you as we wrap up, but what, is there a, a, um, a tidbit or a leadership item that you learned from someone else that you've, that's really stuck with you that you feel has helped you be that leader that you've become?

Helen Fanucci: Gosh. Um, you know, I guess that the tidbit would be that, and I learned this from somebody on my team, that they were a high performer and they told me how much they appreciated me addressing the underperformers on the team because they felt that it would be kind of a indictment on all of them and it lowered kind of the Reputation of the team and so what I learned from that is that top performers will leave if The manager's not addressing the underperformers and under addressing performance is always so hard and managers, a lot of managers don't want to do that.

So my, my tip would be if you have an inkling that something's not quite right, take it and get curious because. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg. There's probably more underneath it that is, needs to be addressed. Um, and it matters particularly to your high performers. And there's no way to have a high performing team and to get the results that, you know, you're holding yourself accountable for unless you're addressing, um, all the performers on your team, the top ones and the.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes, I think it's such a good point because we, we didn't even get a chance to get into, you know, what, what cultural, um, renovation looks like or transformation looks like. Uh, but the culture is the, it's defined by the worst behaviors that you allow. So if you say, I want to have a culture that is, you know, respect and authenticity and kindness.

If we don't hold each other accountable. So I think you're right, it's so important to address those things early so that the top performers do feel like this is the culture that we have, it is to have these honest and open conversations and, um, and to your point that you just mentioned, too, I think curiosity is so key in being a really good leader, having those moments of just truly being curious about what's going on without assumptions going into it, but, um, I'm curious to ask those questions.

It's really easy to be, to make assumptions going into a conversation for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Helen, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I have so many notes and takeaways that I can't wait to implement in my day to day conversations. I hope that all of our listeners have as well too.

So thank you so much for being on Growth Driver and thank you to everyone out there joining us today. Hope you have a great day. Thanks 

so much.