The Path to CMO: Insights and Advice from Aaron Ballew

Aaron Ballew: Ask, listen, but never give away responsibility for the decision that you're paid to make.

John Common: Welcome to Growth Driver. Where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. 

John Common:Welcome to the show everyone. John Common here. We are talking today about the role of the CMO a topic that is near and dear my heart. it's a pretty great title, Marketing Officer. Kind of a cool title actually, but what does it take to even become a CMO?

Like, really, and what's it really like to succeed as a CMO, especially in the first two or three years of being in that role? Given all of the major shifts in disruption and innovation that's happening in go-to-market B2B in marketing, is      what today's show is about. This episode is going to be      particularly valuable, uh, to you if you are one of the three kinds of folks. One, you want to become ACMO sometime in your career. Two, you're currently      ACMO and you occasionally feel like you're experiencing imposter syndrome, three, you're ahead of sales or ACEO, who's ready to really      up-level alignment. At your company. Now,      uh, to help me unpack this topic, got a perfect guest. Uh, his name is Aaron Ballew. Aaron has been the CMO at Split for over two years.      He came to split from Ping Identity, where he was the global of Demand. Before that, Aaron has held senior roles in demand gen portfolio      marketing segment And interestingly, he has a background, in engineering, which he has a PhD in because he just evidently is an      overachiever. 

Welcome to Growth Driver.

Aaron Ballew: Thank you for having me, John.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: to be here. Good to      be here.

John Common: Been looking forward to this conversation and unpacking this. What does it really take to become a CMO? What does it take to be a CMO? 

John Common: All right, so my first question for you is, uh, and we're gonna trust me, just, just we're gonna, we're gonna dig into all of it, but right off the top, what, uh,      tell me the moment. it the Dorothy not in Kansas. Anymore moment. Uh, when you said to yourself, um, I am not a VP anymore,      I'm ACMO.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Well, I guess I, the thing that pops to mind is I, I got some advice from my,      my boss when, uh, when he was hiring me into become ACMO for the first time. Uh, and a, a lot, several times in my life.      Some, you know, well-meaning person has coached me and given me really a resting advice. And, uh, this was one of those times.

And, and      he, he said, Hey, Aaron, when I hire you, I, I need, one thing you need to understand is that I'm not hiring you to be, uh, you know, the      best marketer in the room. I assume you will be the a, a great marketer and you'll manage the function. Uh, but your job is the, the, the, the last word      in the title, which is officer, you're an officer of the company.

You're here to help us guide this business regardless of what the topic is, what the, what the functional      expertise is like. I need your mind engaged, and I need you in you contributing as an executive of the company. And if you come in just looking at things through the,      the lens of marketing, then you are failing as ACMO.

And you know, when a person who you respect ,      says the word failing, uh, in your general direction. I'd say it's really arresting, you know, like, it, it definitely sent a little chill down my neck and that's why it      stuck with, with me. I think that's, it was really important advice for me to hear.

John Common: Oh, that's great. Officer First, marketing, second Chief      last. It's almost

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, right.

John Common: not the

Aaron Ballew: right. So I, so I try to do that. You know, I try to, I, I try to walk into the meeting thinking like, you know,      if, if I, you know, as a shareholder, like if I were an, as an investor, sort of, um, you know, what do I care about in this conversation? Not just like waiting for the part that's      about marketing and then go, Ooh, yeah, we could do that, that, that's functional stuff.

That's not executive stuff. So that's, you know, I      try to manage myself and actually I'll tell you, I often fail,

John Common: Oh

Aaron Ballew: you know, like, like all of us do in life. Sometimes I do because I love marketing and I hear that that trigger      word, and I'm like, Ooh, ooh, I know about that. Um, but still, it's just something you have to try to manage and if you fall off the horse, you get back on like the next day.     

John Common: man. First question. That's, we could ri that is so great. That is, I'm, I'm sitting here thinking about that, what you just said. I'm trying to think if there's a better way to      encapsulate I. advice for, for being ACMO, like we should write a book called Officer Marketing Chief. Seriously? No, man. I mean      it because

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: sitting here and I, I've spent the last 20 years, serving CMOs, I mean,

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: CROs and CEOs, but CMOs been, you know, and I've      had a front row seat of seeing all flavors and levels of success in that role from people, to be honest. And, and one, if I, if I      was gonna think about one major piece of advice I would give, it would be, it would probably be that one. Which is, which is, yeah, think about the business and the growth of the business holistically first, and then      connect it to the marketing stuff, and then don't forget your role as a leader.

That's the chief piece. That's really great.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. When I was a, you know, I was an engineer      for a long time, and when I was an engineer, I, I've changed my mind over the course of my life and career about many things. And one of the things I changed my mind about, but when I was starting out as an      engineers, I thought, well, you know, I'm an engineer one, and an engineer two should be better than I am at engineering.

And I thought that manager should be a better engineer than the      SE four or the principal engineer or whatever. Like, why isn't the manager as good at this as the most senior engineer? And I thought that. Okay. For a while.      Um, and then I became a manager, , and, and I, and I realized, wow, that that's not why I'm here.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: That's not why I'm here. That      there, there's, there's a different set of skills that, um, as a, what I thought at the time, a pretty good engineer, like as a good engineer don't make me a good manager.      They make me a good engineer and they help me be a good engineering manager, but not necessarily a good manager.

And I think that that works its way up. Like there's a reason why the      title changes a little bit.

John Common: Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: Um, and so I guess that goes all the way up to VP and CMO. Like the CMO isn't just supposed to be like the best at marketing in      topic X. And by, and at that point, you know, the, the scope underneath you, there's so many different tracks.

No person reasonably could be the best at      it

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: everything, you know? Um, and you have to let go of that. But at least when I was starting out, like I had a more narrow . Kind of worldview of it, and I just thought you,      you kind of got to sequentially be a better and better engineer or marketer. I was so wrong,

John Common: Yeah. No,

Aaron Ballew: I was so, so wrong.

John Common: That's like, that's the      classic of, one of the major classic lessons learned and when, as someone moves from individual contributor to a, to a leader, right? Is,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: is, um, my job is not      to know everything better than everybody else.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: to help accomplish, help this team or this organization accomplish its goals

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: and efficiently.

And     

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: you said something, you, you and I, uh, uh, I really value our, uh, friendship and relationship over the years. And, and, and you said      something to me once that was, the way you put it was so good. I, I'm gonna botch it, but it was something like, we were talking about marketing as a field, and you said marketing is a field      made of other fields in a way, in a way that is tr oddly more true than many other endeavors.

Right? It's, they're so, it's so deep. The, the, the, the,      the practice and know and knowledge base of marketing so wide deep and. And that is a hundred percent true.      in light of that truth as ACMO, how do you navigate? What are some things you've learned to navigate? Um, oh, I'm in a pocket of my expertise.      Should I actually be the smartest room? Maybe I am the smartest one in the room on this topic. Should I leverage it? Versus those other moments where it's like, I'm not the smartest one in the room on this, but I'm still      responsible for it. Tell me about both sides of that. 'cause they're both, they have pros and cons, right?

There's the risks.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. You know, I,      I, I'm, I'm learning as I go, right?

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: and I actually don't know whether . Uh, being the best at a thing in the room      is justification to exercise that and to take command over that topic. I'm not positive about it. So my, you know, my, my kind of framework in      my mind for, for leadership is, um, you know, you're, you're, you, you got hired into the management job and you've got whatever,      five employees or 50, and if you try to replicate you times five or 50, all you'll      ever get is five x or 50 x you.

And so however good you think you are, however right, you think you are, um,      you limit the potential of your team if you use yourself as like the gating factor.

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: And so I.      Yeah, even in those few areas where I think actually I'm pretty sharp on a thing, um, I still try to take a step back and leave room to invite      another person to sort of express their best, you know, version of , of that path, of that skill.

Sometimes it's not just the skills you have, but also that moment in your      life when you have like maximal energy and interest. You know, they may be in that peak moment where they really care and they're hungry about this thing and I'm not anymore, and they'll, and that      combination of their skills and their energy can bring something greater than what would've happened if they just followed my template,

John Common: Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: you know?

So my, my kind of,      the way I riff with my team, and I hope this is accurate, I hope they would back this up if, if you ask them directly, is I do guide them to try to confront      the right questions to help them make good decisions. I. , but ultimately make those decisions for themselves. You know, as long as they're relatively reasoned, and then try it      and back it, even if it's not what I would've concluded.

And if I do that, then there's a chance it'll be worse than what I do, but it'll be, there's a chance, it'll be better than what I would do.      You know?

John Common: them build for the next time.

Aaron Ballew: Yes.

John Common: there will always be the next thing. And we, we

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: as

Aaron Ballew: yeah.

John Common: as

Aaron Ballew: Capacities, right?

John Common:      We, we always, we like to

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: oh my God, this is the day, this is the Super Bowl. This is the one play that matters the most. And then we get through it, either marvelously or horribly. We get through that moment. That was ev      evidently, allegedly the penultimate moment. mess it up.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: you look back at it and you're like, oh God, there's like   more. So as a leader myself, I have      frequently, one of the things I've been working on over the forever is that moment you just talked about, which is like, there's a moment as a leader where you go, do I,      do I reach in and grab. Take control, or do I nothing or do I provide a little bit of light hand coaching guidance? Hey, think about      this. oftentimes I think leaders and managers get faked out by the alleged criticality of the moment. And, and      sometimes it is critical, but if you've watched the movie a thousand times,

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: know is, you know, what if I had with this employee or      this team   times before offered guidance and let them live through it and build capacities, we're now on the  th allegedly critical moment.

     And they would be, they would be navigating it without me,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: you

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. And they may get six x, right? I mean, you may get six x or seven x out of those five people right Out of what you,      what would've been five x if you just play, run your play.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: And I think what leaders get, um, you know, I think a, a pressure that      really terrorizes leaders is that they're accountable regardless of what happens.

You know, and I've heard, I've had those words directed to me as like, look, you're, you're responsible and you're accountable.

John Common: that's right.

Aaron Ballew: Um,      and so there's that, there's something terrifying about that, about letting go and say, okay, I, yes, I am accountable. Yes, I will face the consequences if this bombs, but      my process is to accept a certain risk and allow my team.

To swing for something a little bigger than the kind of sure thing of just running,   17  you know, Aaron's play that, which I just developed in the trenches myself

John Common: That's

Aaron Ballew: I was them. I mean, it's not like it's some crack the code   17  situation here.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. But that's terrifying, right? To be accountable, to be told, look, I, I know you got all kinds of reasons why it worked or didn't work   17  or whatever, but, uh, but I'm talking to you not the person you delegated it to.

So, and, and that's real life. 

John Common: Yeah. So there are different types of CMOs. This is another   17  kind of cool thing about the fact that marketing is so big, so deep, so wide as a field. Uh, one of the ramifications of that is that there are many paths into CMO. There's, and there's   18  archetypes, right? There's not unlimited numbers really, you know, and so some of the archetypes of types of CMOs, there's the brand or corporate comms,   18  CMO, there's the, uh, demand. CMO CMOs that came through demand. That's relative, that's new in the last   years, I'd say even really seven years.   18  there's the, uh, product marketing or product development, CMO. the CMO who was sourced from sales.   18  a little more rare. And I think you're a type of ACMO, which is, comes from, uh, not just product, but from like truly tech R and d engineering. Um,   18  those are the four or five sort of, you know, Myers-Briggs types of CMOs. What, attracted you to the role given where you started in your career?   18  I

Aaron Ballew: The, well, nothing. Um, I, you know, I don't even re view myself as a, as a, like a born and raised   19  marketer, as you point out earlier, I was an engineer. Um, and it's just, you know, life is strange when you're young. I, I happen to be pretty good at   19  math and I went down the path, you know, I think I had looked at like the list of what's your, what's the highest starting salaries, getting a bachelor's degree and, you know, electrical engineering was up on the list, maybe   19  chemical engineering or something.

And I picked one of those and I was good enough at math that, and I do appreciate and love and enjoy, let's just call it   19  math. Stem, whatever.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: and there was enough of a feedback loop to encourage me to continue that down that path. But like you, you know, like me, like everybody, we're, we're   19  we're broader than just that thing.

We happened to choose when we were 17. And I've always really enjoyed art and music and, and writing like composition and just   19  like the, the lyrical nature of how words come together. And, um, that wasn't my job. That wasn't my training. Um, but even   20  as an engineer, I really enjoyed talking to people. You know, I really enjoyed getting in front of a crowd and, um, and making really   20  esoteric, you know, really obscure technical things, entertaining and interesting.

And it just started to happen. Um, as   20  an engineer that they would, you know, my company would just put me in front of people more often.

'cause Aaron, Aaron was the engineer who liked to talk. And, uh, at some point in my   20  personal life and career, I was looking at jobs for some reason,   20  and I was an engineering manager at the time, and there was an opportunity, uh, to take on a product marketing type of job, a technical marketing job, which they kind of described   21  to me as, take the techie what we can do and translate that into you care about this and it's, and it's awesome.

And I said, oh, I ,   21  something about that is connecting with me, even though I don't, I don't know exactly what you mean, but I think I get that. And, um, at, at that, at that moment, I had   21  been in sales engineering. I was actually out there with customers all the time talking to people and kind of in the, in the trenches.

And there was this, this kind of undercurrent in the sales force of how like . You know, marketing   21  doesn't get what happens out here in the real world. Um, and I had learned to think that way. 

But I thought, oh, this is, this is really interesting. And the thesis of the guy who hired   22  me was, I wanna bring, 'cause he also had heard that kind of feedback to marketing. He said, I want to bring somebody from like the field or from an engineering background who can bring some real,   22  real concrete kind of, you know, let's just call it substance for the moment into our marketing messaging.

So, yeah. Yeah. So that's how I got in. I was   22  in product marketing basically, uh, technical marketing role. Um. Coming up with, you know, that he asked me a, a couple weeks in, he is like, all right,   22  um, we need you to devise a campaign. And I said, well, what is a campaign ? So,

John Common: that's a good question. That's

Aaron Ballew: yeah. It's, it's actually still a good question.

John Common:   22  Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: It's still a good que

John Common: Aaron

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Right. Let's, let's, let's talk about that for another hour.

John Common: later. Actually in this interview,

Aaron Ballew: Right. Literally. Um,

John Common: All right,   22  so

Aaron Ballew: so

John Common: got into marketing. All right. So, so that's how

Aaron Ballew: yeah, but it wasn't like, I want to be in marketing, or I want to be ACMO. It wasn't that.

John Common: well it sounds

Aaron Ballew: It's just

John Common: tell me if this is right, what drew you to marketing?   23  Whether you, whether even though it, maybe it wasn't conscious, but incrementally, it sounds like your career

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: realized or experienced how   23  this big, deep, wide field called marketing can offer opportunities to tap into a, a wider of   23  your interests, your passions, and maybe your talents, right?

Aaron Ballew: you're right. I mean, that's, yeah, you're right. I mean, it gave me a, an outlet   23  to, you know, one thing I've, I think I've told you before is like, um, getting into the marketing organization, there were a lot more hugs than in engineering, and I really enjoyed that. I just   24  liked that sort of warmer kind of social environment, um, because I, I would self-describe as an introvert, and it was a little awkward at, for me at first when someone would come at   24  me with a hug.

And for me, being a engineer, getting into marketing, I certainly appreciated the opportunity to,   25  uh, you know, exercise the right brain. If, if you believe in that, that dichotomy,

John Common: Yeah. Right.

Aaron Ballew: um. But the thing, the way I was able to contribute at that time   25  is that there was really an explosion of just data richness in marketing.

John Common: That's right.

Aaron Ballew: at that moment, there just weren't yet as many people who had been trained to manage   25  data, you know, to work with data. Now it's a lot more common. 

So I it they were like, oh, Aaron, you, you can, you can project, you can build a forecast, you know,   25  you can write a little algorithm, a little bit of code to do our attribution model , and, and it's like ice cold logic   25  that nobody would complain. You're like putting your thumb on the scale and cooking the books or anything, which I don't know if you've heard John, but

there are rumblings of that out there   26  in, in, in the, uh, ecosystem when it comes to marketing, having a little bit of friction with other departments, it's so often it's about different interpretations of the numbers.

John Common: Uhhuh.

Aaron Ballew: So   26  it just turned out I, you know, I had an opportunity to contribute in that way, even though I'm not ice cold.

That part of my skillset was something I could offer,   26  um, because they needed that.

John Common: I've watched you do that in more than one company. I've watched you be a force. For, and I'm gonna use a word that is a dangerous word to use,   26  but I'm gonna use it 'cause it applies to you for factual truth, a force for truth backed by data, which

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: desperately need in B2B, go-to-market needed in B2B, go-to-market. Um, there's so many things that are, that are shades of gray, but, but, but I've watched you multiple times in different cultures,   26  different business models, different logos, different companies. Be that person who says, Hey, not here to spin and   27  win. I'm here to find out what is actually happening so that we can digest the, either the good or the bad or that, or the both ness of that, and then make our next smarter and formed   27  move. And, and, um, my God is that needed? And really every endeavor, but especially B2B, go-to-market. So you just have to take that compliment.   27  That wasn't a question. Um, so,

Aaron Ballew: Thank you.

John Common: uh, yeah, you bet man. Uh, more of that. So, um. You   27  engineering into product marketing, into segment marketing. Then you jumped into this thing, this deep   27  thing called demand, demand creation.

And then, and   28  then what the pur purpose of this episode is, is you jumped from the VP of Demand into this thing called CMO.

Aaron Ballew: Right.

John Common: I guess my question there is, in light of that   28  hop from Segment marketing into demand and then demand into CMO, what's one kind of, huh, Insight or that   28  felt different from segment marketing to demand, and then what's one that comes to mind where you're like, damn, that's really different from VP of Demand to CMO?  28  

Aaron Ballew: Yeah, well, you ask very thought provoking questions, John.

John Common: That's my job.

Aaron Ballew: Um, I think going from segment and   28  product marketing to demand, um, you know, it, it reminds me of an expression that I used to hear a lot in   29  marketing, you know, five to   years ago. I don't hear it as much now, but there was this expression I used to hear a lot, which was strategy to execution.

And, you know,   29  in segment and product marketing we were, I would say it was more on the strategy side. We were producing . targeting, messaging, and sometimes even   29  going as far as producing the content. You know, different organizations are structured a little differently,

John Common: Right,

Aaron Ballew: but the actual execution, which most people would experience as   29  deployment of the media.

You know, media planning, media buying, and then the media management, the so-called campaigns, you know, the advertising, the whatever.   29  That wasn't as much my day job, but it's something I depended very deeply on.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: And, and it was like, this is a, this is an   29  and function kind of situation. You, you really have to have both of them, or you have neither of them, you know, it, you, you , you know what I mean?

Like,   30  it doesn't really,

John Common: We

Aaron Ballew: it doesn't,

John Common: I see

Aaron Ballew: yeah.

John Common: Ask me how many go-to-market teams I've seen who are way over rotated on doing shit  30  

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: and under borderline pants list when it comes to a truly thoughtful, refreshed on point, integrated, aligned strategy.   30  But

Aaron Ballew: Right?

John Common: is also true, which is if you're all strategy and pointy headed, whatever, and you're not shooting

Aaron Ballew: Yeah,

John Common: downfield,  30  

Aaron Ballew: yeah, exactly. The, the strategy thing is so, so important and so powerful, but it reminded me of those days, like when I was in sales, in the sales engineering org   30  and which was part of sales, and we would say, gosh, those people back at the ivory tower of corporate headquarters, don't get it out here in the field.

What's happening?

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: And uh,   30  and I felt that being inside of, you know, I guess it was one of the things I, that I carried with me was still having a sense of like, as we do this stuff, how does it actually land   31  when you're sitting across the table from somebody, you know, or when they walk in the room and they see that, you know, that title or whatever on your, something on your booth or

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: somewhere.

Um,   31  and so . I really enjoyed the strategy parts, very heady stuff. Um, and then I really enjoyed being able to, you know,   31  uh, direct and guide how it actually landed in the market. And it gave me a, a better appreciation for what's important about strategy, what's important about planning.

John Common: You mean, you mean, you mean   31  once you became responsible for demand, which is, I I think

Aaron Ballew: Okay,

John Common: saying is, is is the

Aaron Ballew: yeah,

John Common: it's not like strategy doesn't exist in demand, my God.

Aaron Ballew: yeah, of course it does.

John Common: more   31  execution intersected than segment strategy. Right. So, uh,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: that once you became the owner, the, the most per the, one of the people most   31  responsible for driving demand and pipeline, you began to see like, oh, this is where strategy comes to life or not? I.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Yes.   32  Yeah. With the absence of that, it's like when, let's say your agency says, Hey, I'll run your digital media, but I need to be able to see down funnel   32  the pipeline. I need to see what the outcomes were down funnel. Um, and if I can't see that, I don't know what is most important about what I'm doing.

So let   32  me just map that analogy over to strategy, to execution.

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: You can think all these things we're doing in the

John Common: All

Aaron Ballew: side of things, um, are important.   32  And some are more so than others. Some, some are not. Um, but how it lands in the marketplace is a way to assess what really   32  is important. So I, you know, you know, ultimately it's just that having both, not necessarily under the same leader, but, but having both with   32  equal kind of rigor and respect for, and dependence on each other, I think is really powerful.

And the absence of either one is   33  basically pretend marketing.

John Common: So the jump from VP demand to CMO,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: I'll, I'll, I'll bla blurt out   33  something. You clean me up is now you're responsible for, you are, you are responsible for strategy, you are also responsible for execution. But I know   33  the role well enough, and I do this for a living too. It's The role of CMO isn't just responsible for strategy and execution within marketing, there's gotta be a third, and I don't want to   33  telegraph it.

You, you finished that statement for me. what is what? What are the major components? if segment strategy was very strategy heavy, if   33  now I'm the VP of demand, I'm really doused in what does that look

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: does that mix look like or become when you become ACMO?  33  

Aaron Ballew: Well, I think you, you might've asked two questions there, and let me start with the first one you said, what's that third thing?

John Common: Yeah.  34  

Aaron Ballew: And I, at least for me, the third thing when I was VP of demand gen. The thing I sort of recognized in myself that I   34  think I was missing, but what I did see in my leaders, a layer up my own boss, the COO, the CFO, everyone was what I'll just call   34  finance.

And I actually within context, I had a decent enough finance background. I had taken some classes and I had had to manage a budget.   34  Um, but I mean like the finance of running a business

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: beyond marketing budget,

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: you know, we're talking about like your infrastructure costs, you know, your,   34  what product managers deal with like their kind of, their margin within the p and l of their, of their product.

Um, you know, our labor costs, costs across the company, our health insurance, our health   34  benefits, um, the, uh, the amount of debt we have and what we pay, you know, um, in terms of interest there. Uh, and, and then you start to   35  tr get into words that people get really . Let's say triggered by, especially in startup world, um, burn   35  rate, cash, runway, you know, investors, fundraising, valuations and that kind of thing.

That, that was the stuff that

John Common: cac, value,   35  or

Aaron Ballew: Yes,

John Common: a, an honest calculation around this thing called ROI. Yeah, on and on and

Aaron Ballew: yes. CAC and ro that's true. I would say like CAC and ROI, at least within the context of demand   35  gen, were still sort of very, very central concepts. But some of the other things that I just mentioned weren't as much so, but I did notice, like the C-level, people talked about that all the time.   35  And what that kind of reflected to me is that's what they actually care about all the time.

That's what they're thinking about all the time. Um, that's where I wanted to get my brain into that world. I actually   35  approached our CFO at the company and just asked him if he would mentor me. Um, and I would say if there's, if I were talking to anybody who's listening to this, like I   36  don't be too proud to go ask for a mentor at any stage of your career.

John Common: Amen brother. I have them right now and I'm lucky to have them.   36  Yeah, totally. Alright.

Aaron Ballew: I want to hear about who your mentors are, but

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: specifically approached that CFO and, and he gave me some advice and, and it helped me just   36  get my brain centered in where the executive suite is,

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: which is a slightly different place than where the demand Gen Suite is, even though, or the VP   36  Suite is, even though it's very money centric.

It's very ROI. It's very performance, but it's not exactly the same thing.

John Common: Yeah. And, uh, I, I don't, I don't know what little framework we're building right now, but it's almost like the   36  anatomy of a, of a fully formed CMO. It's strategy capabilities, deep execution   36  capabilities, business and financial management capabilities. And I think we didn't mention it just now, but we mentioned at the beginning it's people,   37  leadership, culture, accomplishing anything, accomp, accomplishing things through others.

And, and, and I would pause it not only the people in your   37  org chart, because the, there's, there's a, especially in B2B, there is a deeply. Cross-functional quarterbacking aspect to being ACMO and be in,   37  in AB2B context. That means we, we have to find ways and it's hard as shit accomplish things, not only through our own people who report up into me, but sales,   37  success, and product.

I mean, that is hard it's the definition of of, of vision and leadership, which is the seg. A good   37  segue as it turns out to my next sort of, let's, so, okay. Congratulations, you became ACMO. Now I want to go kinda the next step in the sort of the lifecycle, which is   37  you are, uh, the role and you're entering the role at a company. I'm the CMO at X. do you establish    38  your vision, and then how do you begin to build strategy as a new CMO at a new company? 

Aaron Ballew: Yeah, good question. I'm actually rewinding in my mind how I did it at, uh,

John Common: how

Aaron Ballew: at what? Yeah. I actually got a lot of advice from people pe people had told me you should   38  read the, you know, these books, you should read the first 90 days and that kind of stuff. Um. I really didn't follow much of, of the advice, but to be honest,   38  um, so the first thing I I came into is, you know, for one thing, I didn't want to be the playbook guy, and I actually,   38  you know, meaning like, I know how it's supposed to look and I'm just gonna make it look that way.

John Common: did

Aaron Ballew: And

John Common: Acme. We're gonna do it at beta. Yeah,

Aaron Ballew: yeah, and a lot of people do that and a lot, and actually a lot of hiring   39  managers want that. 

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: And I've seen di diametrically   39  opposed filters. There have been cases where I saw spec and they said, we want someone who's been there, done that. Right. Bring, bring us a playbook. You've done this,   39  and just do that here. And then I've seen. It's literally written in the spec. We do not want someone who's just been there, done that.  39  

We want you to be open-minded, entrepreneurial. Don't assume that our situation is like the situation you had at Company X.   39  And you know, I look at those two situations. Neither of them are wrong. I mean, they're just, they're just what the, the leadership is looking for. But you want to know, I think,   40  who you are.

and I know who I am. I certainly have run plays and I've learned frameworks works, and I've, and I've, uh, you know, had   40  patterns that worked better for me or didn't. But I try to approach a new situation as a new system, and I have to understand the system before I can really advise or,   40  or plot the solution, you know, to whatever, let's call it the problem that the situation is facing.

So I, so I, I tend to favor one of   40  those more so than the others. Um, in what I look for in the, in the challenges that I, that I tackle. So when I joined   40  my company as ACMO, that was the first thing I did, is I tried, I really tried to restrain myself from, you know, pattern matching too much and going, Ooh, I know what's wrong there.

  40  We'll do this. I know what's wrong there. We'll do that. Even though it's very satisfying, you know, there's a lot of craving for, for a new leader to say something with conviction. And even   41  the word conviction is often articulated by leaders. You know, it's just, there are certain words that get around and people just start talking that way.

Um, they want you to   41  have conviction. And one of the things that frustrates people about me is that I, I don't project artificial conviction until I'm ready to,   41  and that's just a personality trait, you know, that you have, that I have to be satisfied with.

John Common: is that, or is that a piece of advice? It's 'cause we're, so the question I'm asking

Aaron Ballew:   41  Could be.

John Common: you're ACMO at X. How do you establish your vision and your strategy? And what I've heard from you

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: so far your answer   41  well before I tell you how I establish my vision and strategy is open and don't walk in with what, what did you just say?

False. Uh, what was

Aaron Ballew:   41  Conviction. Yeah.

John Common: conviction.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. And just running a play recipe books,

John Common: don't

Aaron Ballew: know, I don't do that.

John Common: That's

Aaron Ballew: At least for me. I, I, I, I, I wouldn't do that, but that,   42  but if you don't do that, I, as I've kind of pointed out, you leave a gap. There's something that people still want. They're like, well, then why are you here? You're not making the decisions yet.

You know, you haven't rolled out a new   42  program or turned over the team, or whatever. So you do have to give something in exchange. And the best I can do is how I make my decisions, right?   42  Is well in two directions. One, what am I looking for? Right. So I, I do kind of try to teach my stakeholders like I have a mental model, which is very simple.  42  

Let's get my facts straight, make a decision, and then get it done. And you have to have all three legs of that table there. There are too many people out there who make a decision without getting   42  their facts straight, disaster, unless they're lucky. There are too many people who can do things if you tell 'em what to do, but won't make a decision.

Alright? Disaster. Uh, and there are plenty   42  of people who get paralyzed and they get your facts straight. They, you know, just analyzing and won't make a decision. And, and like, even as I say that, you can probably like conjure up in your mind real people in your   43  past who have been any of those archetypes, including yourself maybe, right?

And myself. So for me, that's what I'm looking for. And so if I'm very clear, like I'm just getting my   43  facts straight here based on these facts, based on how this comes together, we're gonna probably make this decision or this decision. Like it's very clear what the logical   43  sequence here, what the process is.

You have to give that at least. People understand like, oh, there is a method to the madness here. There is like something happening and it's not like just   43  indecision or, or fear of making a decision. It's not that it's a responsible decision,

John Common: I think,

Aaron Ballew: right?

John Common: just answered, I think I get it. I said, well,   43  how do you establish your vision? And I know you well enough to know that framework, that three point framework is, is, is your, it it, it is a major part of your vision, which is,   43  we. Obviously we're here to drive growth and drive it

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: So how do we do that big ever-changing, caco disrupting,   44  ambiguous thing called drive growth. Okay, drive growth. What I hear you say is, in, by demonstrating and installing a model   44  that says we will get our facts straight, we will make decisions, we will execute those decisions. And guess what happens?

What   44  four is, is back to one. We have new facts that we

Aaron Ballew: right?

John Common: straight on, that we have new decisions to make that we now need to go execute. And there, there   44  begins the cycle. And I think that's what I think that is your vision. 

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Uh, many of the marketing job roles I've come into, um, I think the get your facts straight   45  phase is really important for the stakeholders. If you are clear that that's what you're doing, because so often I, at least in my experience, kind of one of the chief   45  complaints and, and it, and I will say it's a complaint, is like the last person just didn't listen to me.

you know, they went off doing this. We were literally targeting, targeting different people   45  or something. Right. And, and sometimes that's a one-sided version of a story that's really just, they did listen and we disagreed. And I don't like the decision they made, but sometimes it's   45  at least communicated to me as like, well, they just weren't listening to me.

And as long as you're clear and, and that doesn't just apply to stakeholders, it actually applies to the team too. You know, as a manager, you've got a   45  new team under you who are making a decision, do I like this new boss or not? And, uh, you know, them being heard, them, you really listening and understanding their point of view   45  without committing that you're just gonna do what they want.

You're not there to just satisfy

John Common: you.

Aaron Ballew: what they had always wished we would do. Yeah. It's not telling me what to do. You gotta be clear   46  about that. But it's that you're, you're really seriously contemplating and considering and incorporating their, their point of view into   46  ultimately decisions that you're responsible for.

And as long as I can commit, I will make a decision, but it'll be a decision where. , I've got all the, the   46  right information that you would want me to have before I make the decision.

John Common: Step one, get your facts straight. Step two, make a decision. Step three, execute it, and then go back to step one. Okay, we got that. But what

Aaron Ballew: Yeah,

John Common: just said is, you   46  have an opportunity when you're doing step one called get your facts straight. There's an opportunity to build trust and   46  cross-functional even, I would even say cultural. You can build culture, build trust, and build alignment. If when you go to get your facts straight, you do so with   47  intellectual honesty and you do so by listening, asking, and listening. That's deep. That is

Aaron Ballew: yeah. Ask, listen, but   47  never give away responsibility for the decision that you're paid to make.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: know, that's, that's one, because I, I've seen marketers go down the wrong path. I. , I'm just gonna claim that it's the wrong path   47  of being the sales appeasers, you know, make sales happy. I don't think that's healthy, that in, in fact, I've, I've actually talked to sales counterparts very openly, uh,   47  who've who've told me, I don't wanna make the decision for you, Aaron

I don't want you to make to, to just try to make me happy. I want you to make a good decision. I want it to be a professional   47  decision, one that I can get behind.

John Common: right.

Aaron Ballew: I wanna understand it. I wanna have some confidence that, that we're on the same team here, but it's because we, you know, whatever. Because   47  of you and I, our history or because of the, the last guy or gal that was in this job, we didn't have that trust.

I didn't have that belief.   48  And somehow it devolved into well just make sales happy 

So you still have to maintain responsibility of the decision. Um, but you   48  don't have to be such a blowhard that you're just running a recipe book and, and, and, and you, you do have to give that process a chance to, to rebuild. A lot of times people say Reestablish   48  the relationship. Rebuild the relationship.

It's because things weren't going well.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: You know, when you get ACMO job, I'm gonna say four out of five times, it's because things were not going well.  48  

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: The relationship one out of five times that CMO that you're replacing, um, got plucked for their next stage. Their huge, yeah,   48  they got that huge next step, their whatever, some huge public company, Brent,

John Common: was dark man. Yeah,

Aaron Ballew: four times it wasn't going well.

The pipeline's drying up or sales is upset   49  or whatever, or we think the message is way off, the founders aren't happy and so on and so forth.

John Common: yeah.

Aaron Ballew: Um, so you do have to fix something. You do have to rebuild something.

John Common: That is another call out. And I want to, you didn't say this, I, you're inspired this just now in me. This episode is about being ACMO, but the thing you just talked about, which is don't go out there. Get the   49  facts straight in an open, honest, trust building. Ask an, ask an honest question and listen way, but then you, the B part was, but don't, they   49  don't want you to, and you can't give away your responsibility for owning a good decision.

And then that gets executed. My point is,   50  don't wait until you become a CMO to learn how to do that. You can do that right now. If you're a, if you're a marketing manager, you can, in the scope of your current job, apply what Aaron just   50  said. You can, and I would encourage you to, if you're a director, begin developing those skills definitely if you're a vp.

So anyway,   50  that's, good stuff. Um, okay, so we're still in this sort of establishing strategy phase. There's several, there's a couple of questions that I want to ask.   50  And, um, let's see if we can keep 'em relatively quick. But,

Aaron Ballew: Okay.

John Common: there's been an explosion of XLG. I call it XLG, and the XS could be marketing led   50  growth, sales led growth, product led growth, community led growth, e partner, ecosystem LED growth, peanut butter and jelly LED growth.

So you walk in the door and maybe they're doing some version of acquisition focused one to many   51  marketing and sales doing the 20  Serious Decisions MQL machine, which by the way,

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: 85% of B2B. And then you come in as a new CMO   51  and you're aware of ABM. You're aware of product-led growth, you're aware of partners you're aware of, indirect channel, all these different motions. How do   52  you go about selecting the right one so that you can then execute and bring it to life. 

Aaron Ballew: yeah. Well, you know what, so for one thing, I, I ask people who have done it   52  or claimed to have done it, like I just talk to people and sometimes I'll even ask, um, you know, my current CEO is really good about helping me with this is just bridge me to someone else who is in a company   52  that has done this or people think that have done this.

And just talk to them. What are you doing here? Because what often people are doing is they are not actually deploying, like   52  the recipe book of PLG or something. They're at first principles trying to solve something for their company. It starts to look similar to how someone else solved it and some third party   52  labels at PLG,

John Common: Right,

Aaron Ballew: right.

Or some third party labels at SLG or some third party labels at ABM or whatever. And then they go and sell a tool or a   53  class

John Common: it.

Aaron Ballew: a, or a block.

John Common: label it is to sell you something quite often,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: to help you in your unique situation.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. And, and those frameworks are   53  interesting to me. There is a synthesis happening there of findings, right? People have found things. But what I'm really interested in, and those do guide me a little bit, but what I'm most interested in is the first principles, you know,   53  the person who actually did this, what are they actually doing Day, day-to-day.

And why? Because the framework can certainly inspire a, you know, give you direction like, Ooh, I need to learn about   53  something called PLG, but before I dare apply it at my company, where there are peoples who are drawing a paycheck and there are customers   53  and there are investors and all that. Before I dare do that.

um, I want to go to our first principles, right? I wanna apply

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: was really happening and I'm perfectly happy for whatever   53  I'm ultimately doing to get labeled by some third party later on. In fact, I would be very proud of that. Um, but I don't do, like, as I said before, I don't really apply the recipe book.  54  

You know, I don't go read a blog that says, well, here's, here are the five steps to PLG, and then let's make sure we do that. Like it's a best practice that that doesn't, that doesn't help me a lot.   54  You know, findings of statistical call it findings at the group level aren't necessarily justifiably applied at the individual level.

And this applies in   54  many, many facets of life. Um, just in terms of rigor of, of, of what science is and what what study is. Um, but so many of us   54  use the framework or the playbook, or the best practices or the industry standard as the justification for why you do a thing. And I will offer   54  to you that if you do that.

you are not exercising your responsibility as a leader of the company.

John Common: Have you ever heard

Aaron Ballew: shirking, you're shirking your responsibility.  54  

John Common: Have you ever heard that quote? The map is not the territory.

Aaron Ballew: I don't know if I've heard that one, but I I think I follow.

John Common: it's awesome. It's like, yeah,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah,

John Common: map. You need a map.   55  But don't make the mistake of thinking that this two dimensional piece of paper called a map is the

Aaron Ballew: yeah,

John Common: earth

Aaron Ballew: yeah.

John Common: the framework ain't the ain't the truth of your   55  use case. And,

Aaron Ballew: Right.

John Common: and don't go read a book and then march into your go-to-market planning and being like, I've got the answer. Yeah, that   55  totally.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: A long time ago I learned a weird thing. You know, we were using a best practice where we would, we would, um, like we would ease up on our email   55  sends over like holidays and weekends. I, I mean, this is years ago and it was just 'cause it was like a best practice we had read somewhere I. In a blog or or   55  something.

Maybe Somebo, I don't know where it came from, but our email guy, um, was like, yeah, we, we shut those off because people don't want to read   55  emails. And I, and, and then we tried it. We was,

John Common: that. Right.

Aaron Ballew: yeah. Yeah. And I don't know what someone else's bible said. 'cause honestly, I don't know where we even got that idea, but we just tried it and we saw, oh, actually   56  for these certain, uh, message streams, like consistently,

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: they would not only get the same, but like slightly better open rates

John Common:   56  Right.

Aaron Ballew: on the weekends and holidays.

And I, and it was so strange in my own mind, I remember like, it was the hol the winter break. Very soon after that little experiment we ran and I realized   56  I was sitting there at my in-Law's house and I didn't, it wasn't like a highly programmed day

John Common: right?

Aaron Ballew: and I was just kind of sitting on the couch and I was just tapping away at my phone.

And I realized I'm reading   56  these emails right now that are being sent to me.

John Common: Yeah,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Like they have my attention anyway.

John Common: yeah, totally. Yeah. Like 

Aaron Ballew: the, the  56  

John Common: That's

Aaron Ballew: Go ahead.

John Common: That's a really good

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: Alright, so rounding out this section. I got one other, I I I would be derelict in my duties as host of Growth Driver if I didn't at least ask you new   57  CMO. We talked about go-to market motions. We gotta talk about the balance reputation,   57  brand awareness, I'll call it demand cultivation. The cultivating and creation of demand, which I, I think has a lot to do with and awareness and   57  reputation being in balance with the capturing and converting of demand. It's a, it's a big topic in our industry right now for good   57  reason. The way that the, uh, story goes is that our field, the field of B2B   58  marketing, B2B growth over rotated, we think into bottom of funnel demand capture, demand conversion, and bottom.   58  How do you as AC, as ACMO, let alone a new CMO, entering a company with real deal pipeline requirements and all that kind of stuff, how do you navigate and   58  think about the proper balancing of top of funnel demand creation versus bottom of funnel, um, conversion.  58  

Aaron Ballew: Um, um, it's a, well, I don't know what the proper balance is   58  and the balance, I think changes from time to time. Um, when I, when I came into it, it was before the   58  recent economic instability, let's say, um, particularly in the tech world.

John Common: Mm-Hmm.  59  

Aaron Ballew: And so the model, like the kind of framework in mind was very much that the demand you do capture is partly demand that was   59  generated by yourself and partly demand that was generated by others.

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: That, that makes enough sense, right?

John Common: be the third,

Aaron Ballew: Or .   59  Yeah, sure, sure.

John Common: or just organic. Like sometimes I need a thing and I didn't need a brand's help to tell me that I, that my washing machine broke.  59  

Aaron Ballew: yeah.

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: Well, yeah, that's true. That's true.

John Common: I, yeah.

Aaron Ballew: Wherever the demand came from,

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: right?

John Common: so, so your point is

Aaron Ballew: Um,

John Common: sometimes you create the demand,   59  sometimes others.

Aaron Ballew: right. So, so the way we modeled that was like, well, we have a responsibility to capture demand, whether we created it or not, but we also have a responsibility to   59  contribute to creating demand for ourselves. And there's also a reasonable point of view that you really can't separate them that way you can tactically in the motions, you can      categorize the things you do as being more about this and more about that, but that you can never really, you know, foundationally separate them,

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: know?

Um.      But anyway, that's another, another debate over a, over a beer or something. Um, but then the, the game      did change a little bit, right? So in my specific case, we're late stage startup on a certain growth trajectory, certain call financial models,      you know, about how much we should be spending. Um, and some other companies in different situations or different stages of their maturity had different targets.

You know, they might be trying to      maximize, you know, how profitable they are. Um, not every company is actually in that stage of maturity where that's the top priority is to just be profitable.      But some companies are. But a lot of tech companies did shift in that general direction and in a very short amount of time.

You mentioned CAC earlier, you know,     ] CAC suddenly became an incredibly, like, it, like in in lights, more so it was always there on the page amongst other     ] things like the growth rate. The top line growth rate. Um, but CAC suddenly became very, very powerful. Very like more so than it had ever been, even though, even as I say that like it was always    20] important.

It was always a big deal,

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: but now suddenly became like the bullseye was not, you can't just grow. You had to show efficient growth. And that efficient growth had to be something    30] you could plot out into the future that would then, um, show a satisfying break even point basically, you know, show a,    40] a credible path towards profitability.

And I'm speaking sort of in the context of these startups, late stage startups who are, are fueled largely, you know, by investment.   50] 

John Common: Yeah. That the, the, the changing, the changing of your North Star metrics as

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: from growth or      pipeline, um, to cac, uh, is, is a, is a total, is a fantastic numeric example of the shift from      growth at all costs to, to

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: But back to brand and demand though, how do you do are, do you, do you even, how do you think I'm, I'm kind of, take me into the specifics      though. 

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Um, well, we did shift towards demand capture in the short term. We realize that a lot of the,      the normal, you know, the normal things that you do before all this happened, you know, say two and a half years ago or something, the normal things that you do,      um. You, you, you really no longer can just do them.

'cause you're supposed to, like, let's say the best practice B2B      marketing tech stack, you know, everyone's supposed to have a tool that does x. Everyone's supposed to have a tool that does y you may argue about which one's the best tool, but you're supposed to have it      now . You really have to challenge that.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: Can we really, can we live without it? Does this really bring enough incremental value? And as you know, and the reason      why so many companies shift, you know, they, they over index on demand capture is because it's so much easier to measure. Um, but actually there is some prudence in that.      There's a reason why everyone does that.

Yes, people over rotate. I've done it myself. Um, but there are certain things that you're fairly confident are, um,      are contributing in a certain way. There's an input and there's an output relation. the relationship. And then there's things that you are, that you believe contribute, but you can't really prove      it.

And you haven't really proven it to yourself, but you believe it's true. We all say it's true. We have the CMO round tables and we say it's true, and we talk about how important it's, but you don't really know.      You haven't proven it to yourself. And this became an opportunity as well as a mandate to      challenge those things and strip them out and bold them back in, in a disciplined way, you know, kind of controlling your variables to start to build a really more      firsthand, uh, you know, basis for why you do those things.

And do they really contribute in some way? And so there were things I sacrificed that you could      fill in the blank, you would already know, but like, um. Certain things like awareness oriented, programmatic display, you know, certain event sponsorships, you know, certain syndication      deals we did, or newsletters.

There were things that it's like, well, we wanna be there, we believe in it. If we're not there, we have this hypothesis of all the bad that would happen if we weren't there, but we never actually tried      to withdraw from that because of the opportunity cost, right? Well, what if, and it's in the budget and everyone does it and you're supposed to do it.

We can't get left behind. But      then presented with this craziness, um, in the economy, you actually had an opportunity to do that. And so we did and we pulled back on certain things and I saw, oh,      there actually is an effect. My, there is an effect when I pull back on just awareness based display, it actually affects my inbound organic      traffic.

And people already had that theory, but how many of us actually tested it?

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: And so now I quantified , oh, now I can justify this much.      I can fold it back in. So hopefully that's one way to kind of answer your, your question.

John Common: That's really interesting. You're telling me that you have over the      last, whatever time, time period,  , I'm guessing six to   plus months, you have run at split your own exam. By the way, if you don't know what split does, you gotta      go check out what Split does. 'cause of, of course, Aaron does this because he's working at a company that, that, that is deeply committed to experimentation. are you saying      that you ran some, some experiments yourself in your

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: and what, what did it tell, tell me again. What did it, uh, communicate? What did it prove?     

Aaron Ballew: well, it, it showed me, um, call it the marginal impact of some of the things, right? Some of the, some of the.      Tactics that go into a marketing plan. Um, there are also other strictures that didn't, you know, things that didn't work as well for us at all. Um, there were certain things,      some, some SEO oriented tactics that we believed were super important and we would never dare not do.

And then we      found out when we stopped doing them, they actually didn't hurt us. It didn't matter. , you know, we were just doing it because you're supposed to do it and everyone says, well, that's best practice. Um,      there were certain events that we, that we were doing, and I don't mean to pick on events of course, but it's just a good example 'cause there's such large investments.

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: Um, and they, they're so,      so very much fueled by a sort of belief and maybe even a vanity. They're like, you gotta be there. Everyone else is there. Um, my competitor is there.      And then, but this gave us a, like compelled us to really look, hold on. I know they're there, but doesn't mean they're there for a good reason.

Why are we there?      Are, is this audience really our target? Like, do we really believe at the first principles level, you know, we say this is our target and this audience is      overlapping, but not exactly it. Okay. I would love to be there if the cost were zero. But if the cost is $80,000 plus      t and e to send all my people, and then the, the, the trackable, the attributable ROI that comes out of it is really hard.

You know, that, that, that difficult argument, you      have to say, oh, well it takes a long time for the pipe to come through from that event. You know, , oh, oh, oh, the, uh, you know, the, they may not have      scanned at the booth, but they walked by and they saw us, and then later they'll come through, you know, as an inbound or something.

Like, we believe that stuff's happening, which is very, very hard to demonstrate. Um, is that belief strong      enough anymore? You know, when things are a little tighter, I. To justify it. No, and, and you can experiment and it, it hurts a little bit. 'cause I like those event      organizers, you know, they're friends, they're nice people.

But to have to say, yeah, we're gonna have to skip this one.

John Common: Yeah,

Aaron Ballew: Um, and really find out. But, but ultimately that's your      responsibility,

John Common: a hundred percent. It's the responsibility and, and, uh, I, I think what you're speaking to is, lemme set it up this way. Um,      the macro environment has changed. Welcome to efficient growth. I'm not asking,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: telling you. So, bam,

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. Right.

John Common: in the room. The air has changed in the room. Now what are the ramifications and ripple effects otherwise known as      what do we do about it and what we do about it? Unless you don't want your job anymore, uh, You take a hard fresh      look at your playbook that you're running,  take a fresh perspective on what do I, what smart, hopefully betts, smart betts, do I wanna make, what adjustments do I wanna make in      my playbook, um, end to end to achieve goal of efficient, more efficient growth. And so with that as      the tee up, I guess, how have you been thinking about that in doing that, in your role as CMO? 

Are you doing account based? Are you doing customer led growth? So when you think about

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: me how you're thinking about how you adjust your playbook.

Aaron Ballew: Well,      so those smart betts that you mentioned, that the first step was US reexamining. Why we thought those were smart betts because some of those smart betts were      rooted in first principles. We had gone through the mental effort to convince ourselves for some reason, through some hypothesis.

Some,      you know, leaps, some, sometimes you do just have to kind of go off a, a certain amount of belief. Um, sometimes based on very concrete data, but re      reinvestigate, like reexamine, why those were smart betts. 'cause it may have been smart betts two years ago. It's not necessarily a smart bet now. And too many of our decisions, especially if you're      inheriting decisions, um, we're actually just smart betts based on the claim of someone else.

You know, the framework, the vendor or the somebody who said, well,      this is best practice. You're supposed to do eight touches or something. Make sure those, you know, , those betts still stand

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: their own on their own as      smart betts now.

John Common: gonna go back in this episode. What I hear you saying is go back to your methodology, get your facts straight. Take a

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: at your facts straight so that you can then take a

Aaron Ballew: Right?

John Common: a good      decision.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah. So that, that's the first step was like, why are these our betts in the first place?

John Common: Yep.

Aaron Ballew: And the second part of it was, you know, you were asking me earlier about like the mix of      brand versus demand. And, and, and we really haven't thought about it that way as much. I mean, I'm very, very familiar with, even in my own self structuring things that way.     

But we took a look at our, um, our targeting, the persona really revisited what would then translate into the brand      who we wanna represent ourselves to be, and the message we would communicate that to them. And then just challenged ourselves that the content we produce is worth consuming.

John Common: Hmm.

Aaron Ballew:      Right. Is it, is it worthy of consumption?

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: Um, you know, I, and I remember one of my colleagues in PR once told me like, you can't run a press release on that. It's not newsworthy.      And I was kind of like taking that word, that concept, and applying it to us in all of our content. Is this newsworthy? Is this something that is worth consuming? Because I didn't wanna rely just on      the best practices of like, frequency, you know, let's just put

trash in front of people enough times. Like, let's get, I don't have the luxury of that right now. I think,      you know, so that was a start. Is, is our, is our story good enough? Is it really bringing, you know, the value we want to people? Because the reckoning that's happening in tech      is, I think a really, really hard fork in the road between your nice to have in your stack and your must haves in your stack

John Common: right.

Aaron Ballew: and for any      given company.

And actually, you may have even planted that idea for me, John, at some point, so I credit you with that. But you asked me what question once, like is, are you a must have or a      nice to have? And at the time, I think you asked me that at a higher level of just like broadly are is your category, is your tool, you know, nice to have or must to have.

     Um, but the way it's sort of soaked in, in my mind is actually with certain prospects and certain customers we have achieved, we have      earned with them the status of must have.

John Common: Right.

Aaron Ballew: but with certain prospects and customers, we have failed to achieve that or we have not achieved it yet.      So is our content worthy of consumption and does it help to earn      the status, the stature of must have

John Common: I think there's a,      what you just said makes, clearly in a tech reckoning.

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: you just said made me realize, I think we're finally at long last,      accelerated, soon to be accelerated by a ai. in a content reckoning. I hope we're entering into content reckoning. And what I mean is      the world is already filled with a bunch of a glut of mediocre content was, that was created in a one to many mindset. And I think what you just said is, what you did have done as ACMO is you've said, we're gonna get real clear about our target audience and our personas, and we're gonna      be courageous enough develop a point of view and creative and content and calls to action specifically for them through the lens of our      differentiated value prop and positioning. And, and to do that, we're gonna say no one, to everyone, one to many      broad, mediocre, try to do everything. And we're gonna laser in. And we're, and we're gonna, we're, that's where we're gonna place our betts. How's it going? How's it going so far? 

Aaron Ballew: Yes. As you said, the game changes all the time, so we're always adapting.

John Common: Mm-Hmm.

Aaron Ballew: we're always adapting.      Um,

it depends, it always depends on what data you're looking at and when. 'cause some things are just very      hard to judge. You know, when I say like, you know, real data that, that comes with the implication of the limitations of the,

John Common: measurement.

Aaron Ballew: of the data,      right.

John Common: Okay. Fair enough. All right. I could talk to you for a very long time, my friend, and we do.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: I know you in the real world and and we do talk regularly, but we're gonna pivot now into the   17  lightning round

Aaron Ballew: Okay.

John Common: of the episode. So lightning round means lightning round. So I'm gonna ask you impossibly   18  deep question and you're gonna force yourself to give me a rar shack ink blot answer. the goal here is to not overthink it. So will you do this with me?   18  You hate

Aaron Ballew: I will try.

John Common: you'll try.

Aaron Ballew: I'll try.

John Common: you for trusting me. Alright, here we go. Um, what's one important thing you learned as ACMO   18  you did your rebrand?

Aaron Ballew: Um,   18  I learned that the way we had already done it, people had put a lot of thought and heart into it, and it was held deeply in their chests,   18  and it was hard to let go. So a lot of times the instinct in rebranding was like, well just say it that way. Um, which, you know,   18  at which point why are you bothering to do a rebrand at all , right?

So, um, yeah, I, I, I saw that, that, that showing respect for   19  what had come before and giving it a chance to actually be better and even undermine why we're going through a rebranding. is, is a fair and, and I think   19  important thing to do is to honor what came before. Don't just like throw it away like it was wrong.

Um, it was probably right at the time, you know, it was right at the time. And then times, time   19  passes, time changes. We learn more, our market changes and it's okay to update things and change things and call it a rebrand. Um, but that doesn't mean what came before is wrong, but,   19  but that, that emotional connection to, to what had come before is not something to dismiss.

John Common: To dismiss or denigrate. Alright.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: one

Aaron Ballew: denigrate

John Common: as ACMO you   19  learned in the, in the launch of a new website?

Aaron Ballew: launch of a new website. Well,   19  I'd say you have to,

John Common: I.

Aaron Ballew: you have to remember, it seems so obvious, but the user, like the person   20  visiting your site and, and try to put yourself in their head of why they're visiting your site. Just as you would when you visit the sites you're interested in, what   20  are you actually looking for in that moment?

And, and don't ask too much mental energy of the person. Once they've landed, they've already done you the incredible honor of showing up on the front page.   20  Can you minimize the mental energy and investment to give them what they were looking for? And I, you know, I remember we were, we were doing this and so often   20  we started to think about, but what about this other audience?

What about that other audience? What about that other audience? And, and it's so easy to get into, you know, satisfy everyone, but   20  you have to have the courage to say, stop everybody. Stop for a second. Remember the one or two, not just personas, but reasons   20  that they come. Why did they come? What were they looking for?

What button were they looking for? And please just put the button under their figure.

John Common: Um, what, what is   21  one piece of you would give someone who wants to be ACMO one day in their career?

Aaron Ballew: Um,   21  I would say learn the language of the business, not the language of the marketing. It's, it's foregone conclusion. You'll learn the language   21  of the marketing, but you have to learn the language of business. Speak, speak in the language that ACFO speaks in or a sales leader speaks in, or ACEO speaks in.  21  

John Common: Great. Uh, you have for many CMOs. You are now ACMO. You have earned the right, in my opinion, to answer this   21  next question. What advice would you give current CMOs

Aaron Ballew: yeah, I'd I'd say, um,   21  maybe I've already given the advice today, but that is, um, exercise your responsibility. Don't, don't let frameworks and patterns and playbooks and other people's.   22  Conclusions, um, make your decisions for you

John Common: Oh,

Aaron Ballew: don't delegate to that. You, you have to go to first principles and you have to make informed decisions   22  as the best marketer in most rooms you're in, because all those other people actually think you are doing that.

They expect you are doing that.   22  They don't realize the, you know, that we can go to conferences and go to a session on how to do such and such and then just bring   22  that back and adopt that framework. They don't realize that's what you're doing necessarily.

John Common: yeah. Don't, don't buy your suit off the mannequin.

Aaron Ballew: Mm-Hmm.

John Common: uh,

Aaron Ballew: I like that.

John Common: of   22  advice would you give the head of sales in AB2B company as ACMO?

Aaron Ballew: Oh, you know, um,   22  I'd say, you know, we're on the same side and . , when you look at another function through the bubble, you know, you, if, if you're in your bubble and someone's in their bubble and the   23  bubbles merge and there's that flat spot in between, you know, you're, you're looking through this like window, but you're, you're not really living in their bubble.

And that that empathy for what people go   23  through in the reality, like, like what the profession is, is something that a sales leader should deeply empathize with. Because there, there are nasty things   23  said out there that I, and I, I've heard sales leaders chuckle and, and, and repeat these things to me. Like when someone says, well, I'm just a dumb sales guy.

You know, very   23  self-consciously, well, everyone knows how to sell. Everyone has an opinion on what I should say in the room when I'm in front of the client that I got into that room with me. And they hate that,   23  right? I mean, that sucks that everyone that you, that you think people undervalue the profession that you're in, like sales is a real profession.

And   23  it's not just the pitch. It's all the back backend stuff. It's the, it's negotiations and red lines and the quote and a lot of stakeholders. Um, it's custom stuff in the product.   24  Like there's a lot to that profession. Uh, you know, my advice to my counterparts in sales is that's the same stuff going on in marketing and I didn't appreciate that when I was in sales.

  24  But once I got into marketing, two things happened. Once I developed one, I developed a really strong appreciation for, um, the real profession or professions   24  within marketing. Like, this is real work. It's not fluff. The second thing I developed was, uh, almost protectiveness of sales. When I heard marketers   24  being dismissive, oh, well, sales, you know, they're not gonna follow up on those leads.

I intercepted that right away. We don't talk about them that way. They're real people and professionals and your partners, and we cannot   24  allow ourselves to kind of minimize them because we're not living that life every day. So I would just ask the same level of empathy and. And   24  consideration from my counterpart in sales.

And it's, uh, I mean, if you can have that in both directions, it's a really powerful partnership.

John Common: Yeah. That's great advice.   25  All of it. So, such good advice. Um, I'm gonna round out with a couple of questions just about you as a human and a person. What's, what's, um, what's the proudest   25  moment you've had so far as ACMO last couple of years?

Aaron Ballew: Hmm. You know, my, my   25  proudest moments, I, that's a great question. Um, usually what pops into my mind is when my   25  employees, my teams, um, get promoted. Not necessarily under me, but you know, when, when someone goes on, you know, I've got a few   25  examples in my kind of past where someone went on to get their first director title, their first VP title, or even their first head of marketing title.

And I'm really proud of that because all those people,   25  you know, we have very deliberate conversations about what's your next step? And like we were talking earlier, like, if you wanna be a VP or you wanna be a head of marketing, you need to learn the language of, of business.   26  So we practice those things, you know, we try to incorporate that into the person's, um, you know, their plan and their work output and that sort of stuff.

So when we see someone   26  actually land that VP job or that head of marketing job, like that's something I'm really proud of.

John Common: I know, I know that feeling. That's, that's, uh,

Aaron Ballew:   26  Yeah.

John Common: that, that's a leader. That's a leader move, uh, is when you really derive pride and joy.

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: From the success of   26  other people.

Aaron Ballew: Right. And not loss either. Not loss because you lost someone from your team to some other company, but like, just pride.

John Common: Life

Aaron Ballew: it's not even bittersweet, you know, it's not even like,   26  oh, you know, it's too bad she's leaving, but it's great that they get, it's not like that. It really is unilaterally like

Heck yes. We've freaking nailed it.

John Common: Yeah.

Aaron Ballew: We closed a deal. They're running it.

And that's, that's a really awesome feeling. Like more so even than numbers and the profession.

John Common: Aaron, you were great man.

You were so generous with your time and your, so your candor and your willingness to just be honest. And I just you from me. I've benefited from it multiple times. I've benefited in the last hour or so. Our audience I know. So appreciates, uh, you and what you've shared. Thank you for being on Growth Driver.

Aaron Ballew: It is my pleasure, man. Thank you for inviting me. And I, and I wanna say I've learned a lot from you too. I mean,   29  we've known each other a while

John Common: yeah,

Aaron Ballew: and, uh, there, there are johns that have worked their way into my worldview and, and I've got very, you know, great, great people   30  who have been part of my professional life that are out there re repeating Johns not realizing where they came from.

So

John Common: man,

Aaron Ballew: you should, you should be proud of that.  30  

John Common: Um, have a gr thank, thank you again for your time and uh, we will

Aaron Ballew: Yeah.

John Common: very soon. You know, I will.

Aaron Ballew: Talk to you next time.

John Common: Okay. 

John Common: I had a blast. I hope you did too. I wanna thank you, um, for spending your valuable time with us here on Growth Driver. 

But, uh, do us a favor, follow us, subscribe, hit whatever button you need to hit, whether it's, uh, on the audio or YouTube or, you know, podcast or on LinkedIn, wherever you find us. Um, thank you for, for finding us and, and I hope you'll share it with your friends as well. Last thing I'll say is just remember, Growth Driver is brought to you by the kind and smart people at Intelligent Demand.

Go check them out IntelligentDemand.com, and I will talk to you soon. Bye everybody.