Leadership and Healthy Conflict with Julie Holunga

Julie Holunga: The meat of the conversation is not the feedback, but what do we do about it?

John Common: Welcome to Growth Driver, where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Hello everyone, I am Anne Marie Coghlan and I am the Director of People Operations at Intelligent Demand and today I am your host for Growth Driver. I'm really excited about today's conversation because we're talking about how I'm Conflict can have a positive impact on your organization when it's handled with the right approach and the right language.

And we're going to discuss some purposeful actions that you as leaders can implement early to establish a strong foundation of trust so that you can leverage those difficult situations as growth opportunities for your organization. And I love this topic because if we're being honest, Most of us struggle when we know we have a difficult conversation ahead of us.

But after today's discussion, we're all going to have some applicable tools to ensure that our intentions are matching the impact and really setting our teams up for success. So to help us on this journey today, our guest is Julie Halunga. Julie is many things, including a leadership advisor, a TEDx speaker, an author, and a member of Forbes Coaches Council.

Julie has partnered with over 8, 000 professionals and professionals and teams to stop practicing lazy leadership by developing trust, communicating effectively, and yes, actively engaging in constructive conflict. So I've known Julie for years and I know her passion for language and for using language in what she calls deliberate leadership.

So today Julie is going to give us those everyday tools to build trust before there's conflict, to have those effective and influential conversations, and to demonstrate how to prioritize deliberate leadership to grow our teams and our organizations. So Julie. Welcome to Growth Driver. 

Julie Holunga: Thank you, Annmarie.

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes, me too. Here at Growth Driver, we're focused on helping senior leaders to lead growth in their organizations. So to illustrate why it's vital for leaders to have the strong communication capabilities, especially Especially in difficult situations, I want to highlight a few studies that you've referenced in an article you wrote about establishing high functioning teams.

So two key points here that I think are really important. So in a McKenzie study, they found that poor communication and collaboration was causing organizations to lose up to 25 percent of their productivity. And then another study by the International Association of Business Communicators showed that poor communication was estimated to be costing up to 37%.

So the topic of strong communication and deliberate leadership is so vital in making sure that our companies are growing and successful. So Julie, I'd love to start off by talking about what is it that you mean by deliberate leadership? What does that mean to you? 

Julie Holunga: Yes. Well, maybe we start with lazy leadership, like what not to do before we can go into what to do instead.

So what I see too often, and this is not, I'm not pointing the finger, I'm not placing blame, but it's something that's a reality in our fast pace, constantly being bombarded with notifications and so much data and information that's coming at us all the time. In fact, there's one study that shows that we are bombarded with 40, uh, billion bits of information on a daily basis in a 24 hour period.

So that's, you know, the color of your sweater, not to mention all the emails and, uh, pings that we're getting all day long. So what I find is that when we are being bombarded with all of this information and demands to our time or our focus is that. We are focusing on the wrong things and we're not taking the time, even the few minutes, to focus on our people.

And that's what I say, like, lazy leadership is, I don't have the time to go have that hard conversation. And that might be a subconscious thought, right? Because it's hard, because it's going to be awkward. We're afraid of what the other person's going to do or say. It's a high stakes conversation. And someone.

So that makes it even harder, right? It raises all of our tentacles like, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen? And so that lazy leadership is sometimes avoidable, oftentimes avoidable. If we just take a moment and step back and think, what does Anne Marie need from me right now? But too often we're just like, I got to go have this hard conversation and then I got to move on to the next step.

next crisis, or the next, you know, how am I going to deal with this? Or, you know, some financial decision or I got to make this big sale. So this conversation that is going to be hard is something I just want to get it done with and cross it off the list so I can move on to other things. So that lazy leadership, it happens too often.

You know, 90 percent of the time it's not intentional. So on the flip side of it, thinking about deliberate leadership. Deliberate leadership are leaders who communicate with trust. And we'll talk more about that, I know, in our conversation. It's leaders who view conflict as a necessity. To innovate, to problem solve, to grow.

And then it's really thinking about how am I operating with integrity and behaving with integrity and showing others. what I expect as, for them to show up as, right? So it's not do as I say, right? It's really like, look at me, I'm behaving with integrity. And that's the expectation I have for our team or our organization.

And I find that if people can just step back for a second and give themselves a minute, Really, literally a minute. How do I want to behave in this situation? How do I want to deal with this conflict? How do I truly need to communicate so the other person, my audience, can hear me? And if people can think, that's how I define that, that deliberate leadership.

It really makes a difference in all aspects of, of life. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. And it's so interesting. You talked about, you know, Deliberate leadership, really being focused on what does that other person need from me? What do they need to be successful and how, how is the communication that I'm giving them going to be kind and clear?

How much, how much does self awareness play into this when you're like, how, how can you be self aware enough of yourself to be able to show up like that for somebody else? 

Julie Holunga: Right. And that self awareness is huge. And there's some people that it comes more naturally to, and others that it doesn't. From my belief and my experience and my research, I know that we can further develop that self awareness if we want.

So ineffective leaders don't want that. Um, I'm not, I'm not trying To focus on themselves. I literally had a conversation with a team yesterday. About being a high performing healthy, happy team. And the foundation that needs to be set. And the conversation that we were having was, A lot of people were being pretty vulnerable.

I'm not so sure. Not saying like sharing every emotion, but being vulnerable in, in terms of what they need and what they want from each other, whether it's about accountability or those hard conversations or conflict or whatever it might be. And what came up was so many people were saying, gosh, I wish I'd had this conversation in my last employer, right?

Or a previous employer of some kind. And so many people shared this, like, my boss needs, my old boss needs to hear this. And when we were laughing about this, like, They need to, but they may not want to. And so having that self awareness of I'm getting in the way of my team being at their best, performing at their peak, that takes a lot of confidence and, and comfort that, Oh, I'm not doing things well, and I have space to improve.

And those who can see that and know I can do better, even if they're operating They're doing fine, but they could be even better or they're doing well, but they could be greater, you know, whatever it might be. We have to have that other, if people don't have the self awareness, they're not going to change.

And I seen that in the last few decades, I see it all the time, unfortunately. They don't have the self awareness, nothing's going to change, right? It's always someone else's fault. They don't see their influence that they're having or the impact that they're having on other people. Right. Yeah. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. And I think, too, one of the things I've seen in a couple of the articles that you've put out is focusing on intention versus impact, which I think goes back to that self awareness, right?

So, um, how often do, do we go into a difficult conversation and it doesn't go the way that we wanted? Um, um. Maybe it's taken wrong. Um, you know, the intention of us coming into a conversation and the impact that it actually has going forward can often be so disconnected and, you know, a leader going into a conversation and just being able to The difference between their intention of the meeting and the impact that they actually have based on the communication that they've put together or the language they're using.

How have you helped to coach leaders, um, to make sure that their intentions are actually connecting to the impact that they're hoping to have? 

Julie Holunga: Right. So it does start, as you said, with that self awareness, right? But just checking in with themselves. Of course, again, it all goes back to like, just take a pause, just take a minute.

What is the impact I want to have? Right? Like, not thinking about what I want to say. or what I need to get across, but what does the other person need to hear? And what do I, what do I want them to understand? Because the disconnect and that gap between my intentions, which may be really good, I want to give you a great opportunity, Anne Marie.

Here's this amazing opportunity to work on this new project or with this client, and it's great visibility, and I'm really excited to give you this opportunity. Now, if I don't think about what you need to hear, Anne Marie, you may take it as, here we go again, Julie's dumping all this work on me. As opposed to, my intentions are, I want Anne Marie to have this great opportunity.

This is going to give her visibility into our biggest project or our biggest client. And so really stepping back and thinking about not, I want to give Anne Marie this great opportunity, but what does Anne Marie need to hear? Right now that I'm not dumping this on her. So it may be, Hey, Ann Marie, we have this great opportunity.

There's this new project or new client. I want you involved because I see that you can learn X, Y, and Z, or you mentioned in our last conversation that you're really curious about this client or this, you want to build up a skill taking on this project. How does that. sit with what you already have on your plate.

And if I need you to prioritize this, what do you need to take off your place plate? And how can I help you? And all of a sudden that has a very different impact on you than I'm dumping something on you. So really paying attention to that. And if you don't know, oh, I don't know what Anne Marie needs to hear, ask them.

It's such a simple question saying like, hey, here's this great opportunity, but before you take it on, what do you need? Or what are you concerned about? Or what's your initial reaction when I bring this to you? And if you've built up that foundation of trust, where they trust you and they trust the team and they trust the environment they're in, they will be able to say to you, I'm already pretty good.

tapped out. If I take this on, can I delegate this project to someone else? Or can I get someone to help me on X, Y, and Z? And all of a sudden it's a really strong conversation and so much opportunity can come out for everyone, right? It's not just, I don't want to do this. But a lot of times what I hear is that people don't want to say, I can't do it all.

No one wants to admit that they can't do it all. And if they're not asked and They might not admit. And even when people are asked, oftentimes they don't want to admit. So I often recommend to leaders to check back in. So even in that instance, like you're given this project and you know, it's a great opportunity.

You don't want to say no to it, but you're so overwhelmed. You're already, you know, At your max, I'm going to check in with you for, in a week. How's it going? How is everything else on your plate? Because oftentimes I got to ask like three or four times before, you know, that, Oh my gosh, I need help. You know, like things aren't working.

It's too much. And so really just being aware, what's my, what's my impact that I want to have and how do I line that with my intentions? And I find starting with the impact, because too often we start, we're human beings, we start with ourselves. But how about we start with the other person in mind? And don't make assumptions.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes. I love that. That's such a good point to focus on the impact versus the, what's in it for me, because I was thinking, um, you know, especially when it's a difficult conversation, when you know you're going to have to give some feedback or you're going into something, um, I call it toothbrush moments. So, you know, in the morning when you're getting ready and you're, you're prepping yourself for this difficult conversation and you're prepping what you're going to say and you're making up what they're going to say back to you and you've had a whole argument with this person and they're not invited because you're just brushing your teeth in the bathroom.

And it's something that I've really tried to practice. It's so hard to, to take that, that step out of the process. I mean, you want to be prepared for a difficult conversation, but when you're, when you're making those stories up. While you're brushing your teeth, you're making assumptions of what they're going to say and how they're going to react.

So I was, I loved your point about, you know, having the conversation and in that moment asking questions and following up. Kind of on that note, if, if you know you're going into a difficult conversation, are there, Are there questions that you recommend for leaders to start with before they go in and say, Hey, Julie, I've got to talk to you about this thing you did yesterday.

It really didn't work out well. Before, before we go into what we want to deliver for news, what, what are some questions that it's important for leaders to ask that person so that they can avoid some of those assumption mistakes? Right, 

Julie Holunga: right. And, and, you know, as human beings, we are the. best storytellers, especially when we're like, it's that one way, like you're saying the toothbrush moment.

I love that. I'm going to use that one. Um, they can make up their story. And I, I must ask that question half a dozen times over the course of the day. Like how much of that is fact and how much of it is you making that up? So you can ask yourself that question. Do I have proof that Anne Marie's mad that I did X, Y, and Z?

No. Right. So getting out of your own head, approaching a hard conversation. One of the things I always tell people is it's not, we've, we've, you know, 20, 30 years ago, the idea was the compliment sandwich. Tell them something good, tell them something bad, but then close it out with something good. Like kind of the Oreo cookie mentality.

Like, and the meat is, you know. is in the middle. We don't hear it, right? It doesn't work. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. 

Julie Holunga: But if you think about starting that hard conversation, letting the other person know, right? So reaching out and saying, Hey, Anne Marie, I'd love to talk to you, um, at some point today or tomorrow about the meeting with the client yesterday.

I want to hear your thoughts about it. I have some ideas of how to make it even better. Where I see people make mistakes is when they say, Hey, Like, they just add some time to someone's calendar and people are like, their shoulders are in their ears. They're like, tensed up completely because they're like, Oh my God, I'm going to get fired.

Like, they literally go from zero to a thousand and jump to that conclusion because we've all heard those stories or we've had that experience where an appointment shows up on our calendar and we get laid off. Right? So that's not the setting or the headspace that we want someone to be in when we're having a hard conversation.

So I've been on the receiving end of that. I certainly have made my own mistakes. So I like to think of, you know, going into that hard situation to check in with someone. To start the conversation with, how are things going for you? Because you may find out that something happened. Like this literally just happened with a client of mine, uh, the two leaders on the team.

And one of the leaders could tell something was off with the other leader. And they started diving in and talking about, Uh, like the vision and what they were doing today to get them to where they want to be. And my client kept noticing, something's off, this isn't quite right. So he stopped the conversation and said, hold on a second, what's going on?

What's been going on for you this week? And he found out that the guy's dog had literally just died the day before, right? So he wasn't. In a happy mood, obviously. He was being kind of snippy. So my client could have gone down the road, he's mad at me for something, oh my God, he's mad at me, right? And gone down that spiraling kind of avalanche like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Or paused, again, you see the theme here, just pause for a second and say, hey, I'm noticing there's some frustration here. Like not saying there's some money. You're being, you're angry or like kind of pointing the finger, but I'm hearing some frustration. What's going on for you today? And say it in a very gentle tone and being willing to pause and listen, truly listen to what's being said and what's not being said.

So noticing emotion, noticing body language, noticing pace, and you may find out or you may just hear, you know what, I've had kind of a shitty week. And that might be it. That might be all you get, depending on the person and their level of wanting to share and privacy and all that kind of thing. And then to be able to say like, is this a good time to be having this conversation?

And it's okay if it's not. If you'd like to regroup tomorrow or next week, if that's possible, right? Like if there's something that's coming up, like I have heard, you know, we have to have this conversation before we go and meet with this client or before we go and meet with the project team. Then, you know, I understand that that comes up and that's a little bit more hard, but really starting conversations and trying to build that connection right away.

really helps. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: It's such a good point too, because we, you know, there was this old mentality that, you know, from eight to five, you were just at work and you just shut your life off and put that in a compartment over there. But really, especially in the world of work from home, our, our lives bleed into work really easily and recognizing that there are times when there's performance conversations and there's, there's times when there's just, there's people conversations.

I'm just, are you okay? What do you need from me? And I love the point of just pausing and asking first, um, because again, it's focusing on like, I want this conversation to have a positive impact on this person so that next time they have a better meeting or next time they do this differently, but they're not going to, it's not going to have that impact.

Because they're not going to hear it if you can't get them into that space first to be like, we're here to be, to be people and I'm here to help you in this moment to talk about what didn't go well and how do we do it better going forward. Right. Um, yeah. Absolutely. Such good points. Yeah. There's so many layers.

to conflict, um, and to difficult conversations to have. Um, can you talk a little bit about how do we identify what level this conflict is at before we even step into the conversation? Um, and then I, I definitely want to talk about. The language that we can add during these conversations, but before we even step into the room, we've got to know what, what level of conflict are we, are we stepping into here?

Julie Holunga: Yeah. And you know, my approach to conflict is, and there are different levels, is let's de escalate it, right? Like we're not going to get rid of conflict, nor do we want to, and I'm guessing we'll talk about that in just a second, but how do we de escalate it so that it's productive, right? So I look at, at conflict as we, we can have a disagreement, like, I think.

The Red Sox are the best team in baseball. My cousin will tell you the Yankees are the best team in baseball. And we can I'll tell you it's the Cardinals. Okay. So there you go. Let's add another into the mix, right? So you know, we can have a disagreement on that, right? It's not so heated. I would even say it's not conflict.

It's just, we disagree, right? Then we could have a misunderstanding, like, you know, I'm gonna get this to you by the end of the day. To you, the end of the day is four or five o'clock. To me, it's midnight. So, you're waiting. It's now six o'clock. It's now seven o'clock. Right? And I'm like, I still got five hours to go.

So, you know, then, uh, But if that is not dealt with, that can build pretty quickly, right? So when we get to the point where we're holding on to that conflict and bringing it into other situations, for instance, you didn't meet a deadline and you made me look bad and I didn't address it. Let's just say that happens, right?

Okay. Then. Six months from now we're working on a project together, and I'm still holding onto that you made me look bad six months ago and I didn't address it and I never gave you feedback and we never had a conversation about it. Now we're working on another project, and I'm I'm holding what happened six months ago today.

And that's where that conflict escalates really fast and can become, can get to the point of polarization. And I wish we all had like these little barometers on our shoulders that would tell us like, you know, buzz us each time we escalate, you know, into this different stage of conflict. Because what I see is that once you get to this polarizing point.

Right? Like, not just that I'm holding it against you, but I'm verbally saying, well, Anne Marie, I know you're not going to turn in things on time because you did it six months ago, so therefore you're going to do it again. Right? And I might be doing that publicly, and I might be, you know, holding things against you and, and shaming you.

in a team meeting, when we get to that polarization point, that's when people leave. So it might be someone leaving your organization. It might be losing a client. It, you know, that's where things, relationships end. So that's what we're trying to deescalate from. So even if you get to this point, like just before polarizations, I call it discord, and that's where I'm holding things against you.

So we can have a conversation and decrease this conflict, and then it can be, well, You know, you kind of made me mad six months ago, but now we talked about it and we talked about what we're going to do differently on this project. And that, that's deescalated that conflict. If we don't have a conversation about it, if I'm not honest to you about what I need, you may be operating like you have no idea that I'm mad at you.

Right? And that there's even conflict going on. And so going into these situations with the goal of de escalating, turning down the conflict, then we can be productive. We can use it to be innovative, to problem solve. It can be constructive. But I'm just focusing on you and how you've done me wrong and I'm going to hold onto it.

It's so much more than holding a grudge, uh, that it, it becomes so useless and it's not helpful. Bye. Bye. Bye. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, I, I really like that point about it. Not every conversation is about getting rid of Conflict. No, it's really not. It's about de escalating and getting it back into a more high functioning relationship And the more we avoid the conversation The worse it goes in the wrong direction is if we just had those early conversations Where it's about a specific event rather than a pattern.

Um, we can avoid a lot, a lot of conflict. That's where I also think that, you know, going back to that McKinsey study, that you lose so much productivity when you're not having these conversations early, because you're, you're spinning those conversations up in your head. You're totally mad at me for what I did.

I didn't know. I didn't do. And so those early conversations, those authentic kind conversations that happen early in relationships is so important. But I think you bring up a good point that, you know, when we're going into difficult conversations, maybe it's been six months, maybe it's been a year, or maybe it's just been earlier today.

Um, They're still hard and we want to avoid them. So what, what is some language, um, kind of, you know, for, if I'm thinking about how can leaders build up a tool belt of language to go into these conversations, what, what language or phrases do you recommend leaders keep with them to go into these difficult conversations?

How do we have strong, Authentic, kind conversations with people. 

Julie Holunga: Sure. So I think of the language two part. One is internal, like the language and the conversation with yourself, and then the language that we're having with others. So first, let's start with ourselves. Going into that conversation and, and practicing curiosity over judgment.

Like I'm going in to ask questions, not to prove myself. Right? So it's like, I'm not proving, I'm not I'm not going in with certainty, I'm going in with curiosity. So I'm going to ask a lot of questions that I don't know the answers to. So going into this conversation, saying to myself, and I practice this myself, you know, before I click, you know, the link to connect online or walking down a hall or picking up the phone, kind of saying to myself, what do I want to find out?

Um, what don't I know? And I'll admit to you, I have, I've been working, I have two teenagers and I don't address conflict well when it comes to them, or I'm working on it, I'm working on it, we're work in progress. If I don't pause, I will fly off the handle because I automatically think she's trying to do me wrong.

She's trying to make me look bad. She's doing this on purpose. No, she's not. Like, nine times out of ten, no, she's not, right? Yeah. So, the kind of language, you know, think to yourself, like, pause, what am I going to ask? What do I want to find out? And then going into a conversation and saying, first of all, truly believing it.

And if you don't, you can't be genuine, then. You gotta step back and not have that conversation. And that's more work and that's the kind of conversation you have with a mentor or a coach. Like, I can't be genuine with this person. What's going on? And peel back that onion, try to figure that out. But if you truly care about this person succeeding and you truly want this person to be part of your team and succeed, then asking those questions of curiosity.

Like, how's it going for you working on this project? What are you enjoying? What's not working? What's the hard part? Ideally speaking, what would you What pieces would you like to get off your plate? Not that I can promise that that'll happen, but what would you, ideally speaking, what would, what would be the ideal scenario for you?

And asking a lot of questions, you will find out so much information that will help you. And we'll certainly de escalate that conflict. So I like to think of that, um, that idea of like, what can I ask to truly find out what's going on for this person? So I go back and forth and you certainly have heard me talk about like when we give feedback, I have this quick five and a half steps, but the last piece of it is asking, is making an inquiry.

It might be as simple as, how are things going for you? Or how do you enjoy working? with this client. So you're giving feedback from my standpoint is the start of the conversation. The meat of the conversation is not the feedback, but what do we do about it? How are things going for you? What are you enjoying?

What are you not enjoying? What's been hard for you? Where are you struggling? Those kinds of questions that are pretty neutral in nature, they're non judgmental. We all struggle. But starting with, oftentimes, Like, what are you enjoying? Gets them thinking, like it, it stimulates a different part of the brain and gets them thinking from a wider perspective, a more positive, I'm really enjoying this.

Might still be parts that I don't like and we'll get to that, you know, like, what am I enjoying? Okay. But what, what would I really love to just get rid of? Like, what could I just dump off my plate and never have to deal with again? It proves to be really interesting conversation. Yeah. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: What, uh, do you have your five and a half tips for feedback handy that you can share with us?

Julie Holunga: I'm so glad you asked. Um, so the, this is built on, I've added my two cents to a three step process that was developed by the Center for Creative Leadership. So the first step is to state the situation. Right? Like in yesterday's meeting, in the client meeting with X, Y, and Z, um, in a, in your presentation to this prospect, like very specific, right?

There's on Monday, like it could be as simple as that. Then the second step is to state the behavior that you noticed and the key thing here, even if there was a room full of people to say, I noticed. That you weren't speaking up? Not we. Because automatically when someone, the receiver hears we, well, what happens consciously or subconsciously is they've been talking about me and people don't like that.

Right. And their defense goes up. So this, these five and a half steps is all with that idea to deescalate, to keep that wall down so that people can really. So state the situation, state the behavior you noticed, and then describe the impact that it had on you. Again, not we, but you. In yesterday's meeting with the client, I noticed you didn't speak up.

I was frustrated because you know the most about this client, or I was frustrated because I really value your opinion here, or I was frustrated because you understand the complexities in this industry. More than anyone in the room. That's the first three step. Then it's key to pause. Okay? That's the half step.

And when I say pause, I mean six seconds. So like one, 1, 000, two, 1, 000, which seems like an eternity there. But you're letting that feedback step in, seep in. And then you want to make a request. Next time we meet with that client, I would really love. to hear your insights and then to make an inquiry. Like it could be what's going on for you.

What's your frustration? What was holding you back yesterday? It's making an inquiry to then start the conversation. And basically what you're, you're, the pause is allowing it to sink in and the inquiry is kicking off the conversation. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes. I love that. I, I'm hearing a really clear theme of pausing, um, and everything is so, it's so important we don't, we, we build in so many words to fill all of the space, but the more that we just stop and pause and think again about the impact on this person because receiving difficult feedback is.

So, to be able to give a breath before making that ask of somebody, I think is such a good point. Really good suggestion. 

Julie Holunga: And to, you know, I'm just now thinking about moments with two teenagers, um, where I haven't taken a breath, right? And I haven't thought, just because something came up really quickly or I didn't have the time to just, Take five seconds and think what's going on here, right?

Like I know our son The months leading up to him leaving home for the first time I don't mean to sleep over but you know, like he moved when he moved away from home I never knew what was gonna come out, right? I never knew like when he what was gonna set him off and Looking back I can say like, you know when he would come into my bedroom at 10 o'clock at night when I'm ready to shut down for the day and And kind of lose his mind All he needed was the release.

He didn't need anything else from me but just to listen. But I jumped on that bandwagon with him. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. 

Julie Holunga: And he didn't need that. I needed, he needed me to stand on the sidelines and let him vent and let him scream and freak out because he was scared to leave home. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. 

Julie Holunga: And just needed that support. Right?

Yeah. I often hear from people, I, I'm really good with dealing with conflict at work, but at home I suck at it. Right? That's pretty typical because it's a safer space, right? But to really think about that and to pause in those moments, and if I could turn the clock back, I now know with him when he has a moment that seems like, oh my gosh, this is coming out of nowhere, like this freak out, it's kind of back to like terrible twos, that I know now.

Just sit back. Just let him be. Yeah. And often times I'll say to him, what do you need buddy? And it's like we now have this language like, I don't need anything mom, I just need to vent. Okay. And it allows him to calm down really quickly because he's know he's, he's being supported. So imagine if we could bring that to the workplace, someone's losing their mind and instead of being critical and judgmental, which we, we do, we all do, we all do, whether we admit it or not, we all do that.

To just ask that question, like, what do you need from me right now? Do you need me to listen? Do you need me to help problem solve? Do you need me to provide empathy or compassion? It really has a huge impact on, 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: on the listener and the audience. It's funny you bring this up because we were just having a really similar conversation with our leadership team about, you know, You know, here today we're talking about how do we as leaders handle conflict and I know one thing that you've spoken about before is that the, the weight of a senior leader's behavior is so heavy and it really does drive the culture and it impacts the way other employees interact with each other.

So for us to be able to come into a meeting to provide feedback well so that. our folks then do the same thing to others is, is key. And we were just talking about this as a team around, you know, when, when employee comes to us with a conflict or a difficult situation, uh, for me, especially I I'm coaching myself here in this moment that, um, I want to go problem solve.

And so I just jump into solution mode rather than actually asking them, what have you already considered? What have you already tried? Do you need, do you need me to support you or just do you need me to be aware of it? I think that's a really key moment that again, the way that we behave as, as leaders reflects back to our folks and how they're going to treat others or treat their direct reports.

Right. 

Julie Holunga: Exactly. Like just what do you need? It can be as simple as that. And, and it is true. Like the weight on senior leaders. Yeah. And I, I have to remind them, like, you're, you're responsible for people, you're responsible for, um, livelihoods and families, like not just the people who show up at work every day, but the people that are dependent on them.

And that's a lot to carry, right, especially when you're making difficult decisions. Yeah. Whether it has to do with comp or layoffs or hiring or firing or whatever it is. If you're able to step out of things and not take, that's the other thing, like when someone comes into you and is like venting, let's say, if you then take that on and you're carrying it for them.

unnecessarily, that's adding a lot to your plate that maybe you don't need to. Because if they come to you and, and, and like you said, like, what do you need from me? And they say, I just need you to know about this. I don't need you to problem solve. I just want you to be aware of it. Then you can kind of Like give them back, right?

Like pass it back to them, like the hot potato, like, okay, not mine to hold right now to give yourself the capacity to deal with those other harder conversations or situations that you're dealing with, because you can't, none of us can do it all. And just being aware of that. 

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Anne-Marie Coughlin: We've talked about how to, how to build up some trust, how to. establish the relationships with our people so that we can give the feedback to really focus on the impact that comes out of it, um, and all of, and the language that we can and should be using around some of these conversations, especially questions.

Um, I'm wondering if, are there any, um, Are there any patterns, any typical language that you see from people that are having a negative impact? Are there, are there words, phrases, questions that we should be getting rid of so that we eliminate some of the challenges we've been facing? 

Julie Holunga: Yeah. So it kind of, again, two, two perspectives you could look at it.

One is the perspective of putting yourself down. And I, I noticed this a lot. So, um, I've made this mistake myself. I'm embarrassed to say it was within the last year, even though I've spent the last two decades teaching people how to give feedback and what not to do, and then I made the mistake myself.

But it just goes to show we're all human. Um, but taking on. Uh, for instance, you're giving someone feedback who's underperforming in some capacity. They're not responding. The quality of their work is less than expected. They're making mistakes, whatever it might be. And people going in and saying, and owning that, like owning someone else's mistake or someone else's underperformance.

Don't do it. Like, just don't do it. Like, even though it might be like, oh, well then I'm not making them feel bad, right? Uh uh. Like, anyone who's a people pleaser, this will resonate. Like, I'm sorry if someone feels bad because they're underperforming, but aren't you better off understanding the why behind their underperformance?

And this happens, like I had a, a young leader, you know, kind of first time manager of people, underperforming and missing deadlines. And it's so out of character for him. And what we found out was that he was so focused on the deadline that he wasn't focused on the quality. Like he had prioritized the, the deadline versus the quality of work.

And the deadline was somewhat arbitrary, right? So had he taken another day, it would have been absolutely fine. And, but we just kept seeing this. underperformance. And there were some people who were like, we got to let him go. He's not living up to expectation. But we really want to keep him. A lot of people like working with him.

His clients love him. And when we were able to sit down and literally say, Hey, Right. That five and a half steps I mentioned, I was in the room to be able to then say, what's been going on? And through the conversation, not immediately, he was able to say, you know what? I've been focusing on meeting the deadlines and not really thinking about double checking my work.

Or even giving myself the time to sit back and be like, How can I really solve the problem most effectively and efficiently for my client because he was just going so fast. I got to meet this deadline fast, fast, fast. And then, you know, thinking about what is needed here, like what can I do differently than I've always done?

Or even thinking about, I'm trying to think of another example of, you know, what could be done that this, that will encourage this person, I was about to say make, but it's not make. It's really encourage someone else to change their behaviors or change their approach or change their thinking, depending obviously on the circumstances.

Yeah. Right. Right. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: And I was just going to ask. exactly that as a follow up is, you know, we want to focus on using conflict, using difficult situations to help grow our company. And I think you've said it before, you know, focusing on the task and the impact of that task on the company, rather than just making it about that person, I think is a really key point.

as well to say this is how when I have this difficult situa when I have, when I have this difficult conversation, it's going to help this person grow and it's going to make our team more effective and our company more, um, more impactful. You know, all of those things are going to follow through by just having these simple conversations and, um, And I, as an absolute people pleaser myself, that helps me reframe this of I'm giving this feedback because I'm going to help this person.

And they're going to help me. They're going to, they're going to help me be a better manager as well too. That's right. And if 

Julie Holunga: we stay focused on that, on the. person, it tends to be destructive conflict. And if we can flip it and say, okay, I'm in conflict right now. I know it. I'm not going to focus on the person and that's destructive.

I'm going to focus on the task. And I'm confident that together we can find a better solution because we both want to perform well or we both want the client to look good, whatever that might be. That's really constructive conflict. And then we can invite all the different perspectives into the conversation and come out with the best answer as opposed to, you didn't do this.

You don't care. The storytelling while we're brushing our teeth, all of that comes into play. That's destructive. Let's focus on the task. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. What do you think about, because, you know, in an ideal world, we've been doing all of these steps perfectly, but as you mentioned, we're humans at the end of the day, um, as the, as the senior leader in the room, and maybe they want to go.

You know, have a really honest conversation with someone, but they realize that we need to rebuild some trust. Maybe, maybe we lost it. Maybe we let conflict go too long. Um, maybe they never built it to begin with. Um, but now they're taking that step. Like I want to build that trust, like going forward, I have a stronger team.

There's a couple of things I've seen you reference around um, you know, authenticity and humanity and dependability. What, what's your recommendation for a leader that wants to rebuild that trust, to be able to go and have those honest conversations? 

Julie Holunga: Yeah. That's a great question. And so I I hear too often this blanket and like a wool scratchy, maybe your grandparents in their closet smells like mothballs, like blanket of, I don't trust her.

And it's just thrown over any situation that's hard that we don't want to deal with. When I work with teams, what I find is when that. mothball smelling scratchy blanket is thrown over situations, and we kind of lift it up and start to comb through and figure out what's going on, there are some elements of trust there.

But if one thing happens that makes us not trust someone, we put that blanket, like, it's just overarching, I don't trust them anymore. So I always start with, I mean it's, You know, a lot more questions than just this one, but where do you trust this person? Or where do you trust this team or this vendor or, um, whoever it might be?

And what I find is that oftentimes, well, you know what, they are pretty dependable. And I know that they care about me. They're showing that humanity, as you mentioned, that's what I call like that humanity piece. They, they care about me as a person, but they don't have the capacity to do what they're saying they can do.

And that's where the trust falls. So if we look at, like, I look at trust as self confident. It's, as, as four pillars and there's a lot of research out there around these, these pillars. Um, I call it humanity. And so humanity is the piece of, I care about you and I want you to succeed without an agenda of my own.

Right? That's the treating people like human beings, right? That's the humanity aspect of it. The authenticity is I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Right? for having me. Okay. And the, the disconnect there often will happen is for instance, and Maria, I tell you, you know, I have this great opportunity for you.

I'm going to put you in charge of this big project. And then the next day I go next door and tell our colleague, Tim, I have this great opportunity for you. And, oh, lo and behold, you and Tim chat, and you're like, no, no, no, that's my project. No, that's my project. And maybe something has happened in the last 24 hours that no, it's no longer appropriate for you and there's actually something better coming for you.

But I haven't had that conversation with you. The trust between us will decrease because I wasn't authentic in the sense that I said something to you, I also said it to someone else, and I never came back around to you and say, actually, I'm going to have something better for you. There's a reason why you're not going to work on that project, I've given it to Tim, but I need to, to come full circle and close the loop on that.

Again, we're so busy, we often don't think about it or we don't think it's going to matter the timing, right? So that's the authenticity piece of it. Then there's the dependability, like I do as I say I'm going to do, and I'm going to Meet a deadline. If I'm not going to meet the deadline, I let you know.

Okay. And then the fourth piece is the aptitude. And aptitude is I have the skills, the knowledge, the capacity to take on the project or the client or, um, some research that you've asked me to do. And if I don't have the skills and the knowledge and the resources and all of those things, I'm going to let you know.

And so it may be, there's, there's something called the brightness effect. I did not invent this, um, through the world of psychology that when we're really good at something and people, our listeners probably know this, they've been in this situation. I'm really good over here. So I automatically. An assumption is made that I'm going to be good with B.

I'm great with A, I'm going to be good, great with B. And oftentimes there's a disconnect there, but that assumption is made. So what I often recommend to people is if they find themselves like, you know, I'm really good at what I do, so I'm just rewarded with more work, right? We've all been in that situation.

To acknowledge that and say, I'm really interested to work on this. This is the first time I've done this in this industry. I may need to do more research than normal. Or this is the first time I've done this kind of, uh, piece of the project, but I have a really good knowledge of everything else, but I may need your support or I may need some additional resources.

And simply calling it out, it doesn't make you look bad. It makes you look really confident because confident people can ask for help. And this is. So often like just ask for help. It's so hard to do, but when you do it, it's really, it helps everyone and then you don't look bad down the road, right? It's that same like avalanche.

Like, let's not like, just don't let the avalanche happen. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Well, that's so much goes back to your original point about when. When you trust each other, you can be vulnerable and you can and you can be authentic and say, I need help with this, or I'm not sure how to do this. I'm going to go, I'm going to go give it, you know, 80 percent of the way there, but I'm going to need your support to actually get this done.

And to be honest with each other, um, either when you're, especially when you are a leader, Being able to be honest with the people you work with and work for and your peers, that's going to be really impactful when we can have those open and honest conversations with each other. 

Julie Holunga: Right. And when we demonstrate that, then everyone else can follow suit, right?

Like as a leader, I can't tell my team, ask for help when you need it if I don't ask for help when I need it. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. Oh, I love that point. That's so good. Yeah. Julie, this has been so great. We've talked, as we've said before, I could spend all afternoon talking with you about this. Mutual. I love this topic so much.

Um, is there anything that we haven't touched on, any questions I haven't asked you that you think are really important, specifically when we're talking to our senior leaders and helping them to have the language and the communication to handle difficult situations? Um, anything we haven't talked about that you want to make sure you throw out there that's really important?

Julie Holunga: Yeah. So, well, Amber, you know, like my passion is really around language. So if it's language of trust or language of conflict, one of the pieces we haven't talked about is the language of communication, which someone said to me, isn't that the same thing? And yes, kind of, but not really. And when I talk about the language of communication, it's really paying attention to the words that you use and noticing if you're undermining yourself in any way, because you, when you undermine yourself.

with your words, you're planting a seed of doubt in your audience and none of us want to do that. It's unintentional. Um, it may be over apologizing. That's one of my pet peeves. Um, don't apologize for something that, like if you have a question, don't say, I'm sorry, I have a question. You have a question.

That's fine. If you're late, apologize. If you miss a deadline, apologize. Otherwise, don't apologize. Don't apologize. Or even thinking about, like, if you're proposing a new way of doing something, say, instead of saying, I think this might work, or I believe maybe I have a solution to say, hey, given my experience, or even just, I recommend we try X, Y, and Z.

And I find it's these tiny changes in our language that allows us to influence people around us so much more effectively. And it's these tiny changes, but be aware of it in your conversation. And I always recommend to people to start with the written, because we can, you know, delete, delete, delete, um, backspace, whatever it might be, um, and then it, it starts to show up.

And people often tell me that they notice, um, what's going on. in their writing so then they can stop doing it in, in their spoken conversations. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. What is a, what is your favorite way? You're giving feedback maybe and you're, you're checking in at the end. I know often I'll hear people say, does that make sense?

Yeah. Did that make sense? Yeah. What's your alternative to that phrase to make sure that it's still landing? Yeah. 

Julie Holunga: There's an ownership when you say, does that make sense? I, I do say that sometimes, but in a feedback situation, what I, because oftentimes people, especially if they don't want to hear it, it might make sense to them.

They don't like it, but it might make sense to them. So what I like to say is, how does that sit with you?

How is that sitting with you? How did that land? Um, some people, um, will use like, how does it feel to hear that? It really depends on the. Um, that's why my go to is how does that sit with you? It's one thing if you're teaching like math, right? And you're like, two plus two is four. Does that make sense to you?

Well, yeah, that makes, that makes sense to use. Does that make sense in that, in that scenario? But if you're giving feedback or you're having a hard conversation, how is this sitting with you? Hopefully. When there's a, a level of trust and safety there, they can say, this is really hard for me to hear, and maybe they'll say, can we come back around, or can we come back together tomorrow and talk about this?

I have to, I've taught my clients to always have that as an out, like especially if they weren't expecting something, to be able to say, hey, I hear what you say, I want to digest this, and I'm going to come back to you tomorrow, and make sure you come back. Don't just ignore it. And, and because then it'll build as we talked about.

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. I, I just had someone say that in a situation where they, yeah, they said, I, I need to sit with this and, and actually hear this for a minute before I respond to the situation, which I, I think is so great. And again, we don't, we're not trying to solve everything in one conversation, but if we can deescalate it, come back to it and build things forward, that's, That's where we're going to have that impact that we really want to have.

So being able to know when you can give that time and that space for someone to, to hear it and respond to it in a way that's productive, that's, 

Julie Holunga: that's really important 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: too. 

Julie Holunga: And in that scenario, it's important and it sounds like you did this where you're okay that you don't say, no, no, no, we got to talk about this now.

I mean, but if you have to even saying, okay, go like take a breather, go get a glass of water. Come back in half an hour. Yeah. Like, if there's, if it is time sensitive, um, but really let people digest. Because, I had a client that I worked with years and years ago and the CEO, uh, had a really tight relationship with one of his, uh, employees.

members. Head of one of the business lines. They had a great relationship. They belonged to the same synagogue so they knew each other's families. There was a lot of trust, and, and they really liked each other as human beings. One was an internal processor. The CEO was external processor, like, off the charts.

Like, he wanted to talk through every single thing. So he brought in, um, uh, The internal processor, his, his colleague, gave him some feedback. It was a hard conversation because they liked each other so much. And the internal processor just stared at him. As the CEO said to me, he just stared at me blankly, like he wasn't even in the room.

Well, no, he was digesting. And as an internal processor, all of his, uh, facial expressions are internal. Yeah. He's not nodding his head. He's not shaking his head. He's not smiling. He's not frowning. It's all internal. So he has this great poker player because he is the best, you know, doesn't show anything.

When I was able to join them in the conversation, I was able to teach one to say, okay, I'm going to give you some feedback. I want it to sit in and sink in and then come back and talk to me. And I give the other one permission at any time to say, I hear what you're saying. I'll come back to you in a minute.

And it was such, from my perspective, such an easy tweak. And it made a huge difference, not just for the two of them and their relationship, but the whole C suite. Because they were able to witness this between the two of them. They had no idea that they, the rest of the team didn't know that they were talking to me about it.

But really being able to see. Like, oh, this is how we model this behavior. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Oh, that's so great. Oh, that's so wonderful. I, I, Julie, I'd love to wrap up our conversation today with a couple rapid fire questions. Just like, what's your first response when I ask you this? Um, and then chat a little bit more just about you so we know who you are as a person as well too.

Sure. But for the quick lightning round, um, it, we've, we've talked so much about language and so many different ways to approach. But is there one go to phrase that you use for yourself when you know you've gone kind of off the deep end? You got to recenter yourself. Is there a phrase, a mantra that you go to that like brings you back into it?

Julie Holunga: Yeah. Um, so a lot of times it's let me push the easy button. If I say to myself, like, I'm putting an easy button, that's not flying off my handle, right? Like, because that's going to make things worse and I'm going to have to follow up. So I like to push the easy button. Yeah. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. 

Julie Holunga: That's great. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Who, um, from a leadership perspective, who are you following?

Who is an author that you love, an influencer? Who are you listening to right now? 

Julie Holunga: Um, so my brain crush. It's been a while, is, and you know this, is Adam Grant. I love his approach to things. I find he, he really adds a simple touch to it, um, but not simplistic. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: So I follow him. Yes. Love that. 

Julie Holunga: Yeah. Um, and then there's certain leaders that I just.

I love how they speak and so Michelle Obama is, I love how she approaches and talks about things that are difficult and potentially ugly. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. Oh, that's so great. Yeah. I, I love, I'll share, um, I've been really following Amber Cabral lately. She has a book called, Say More About That. And I also think that's such a great phrase when you're You're having a conversation with someone, just like, say more about that.

Right. It just, it gives you that pause moment still. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 

Julie Holunga: Like that back pocket comment, like, I don't know what to say right now. Say more. Yeah. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Is there one quote, if you could have every leader have one quote on their desk in front of them, um, that would just help them be better at managing confrontation like this, what's your, what's a one phrase you'd love to have them have on their desk?

Julie Holunga: Wow. That's a good one. They're like three that come to mind. You can use more than one 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: if you want. 

Julie Holunga: Okay. Okay. I'll start with one, which is don't practice lazy leadership for sure. And the other one that is maybe more practical in nature is, um, the acronym WAIT, because it has that pause in there, but it stands for why am I talking?

Oh, yes. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Right? Well, I, I know from your background, you, you grew up living in so many different countries, um, with very different cultures. Was there something in your past that you feel has kind of led you into where you are today to be the, the listener and the coach that you are? 

Julie Holunga: Yeah. So I, so I grew up in, um, Paris, New in, uh, New Delhi and Hong Kong.

And as a young child and what I have taken away from that is it really sparked this curiosity I have in people. And so during the Olympics, I love the behind the scenes when they go into talking about the athletes backgrounds. I love that. Like going to their hometown, like what made them become the athletes that they are.

And so I have some friends, um, who make fun of me because I'm asking people like, how did you decide to go into that line of work? Or what does your day look like? And I truly want to know, but they make fun of me because they're like, could you just like turn it off for a day and let us like enjoy our ski day and not ask us all these questions.

Um, but it really, I am truly curious about people and. Got them to where they are and what they want to do and what excites them. Yeah. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah. Well, then I'll, I'll ask you the questions you love to ask other people. What, what, what do you get most excited about in the role that, that you get to do every day?

Julie Holunga: Yeah. So it's really when that, that. A light switch goes off and people realize something and sometimes it's like a really small thing, but sometimes it's really big. Like I literally had a client say to me this morning, um, like I, I did a, a profile debrief and a communications assessment debrief with her, um, which you and I have done.

And, um, and she said, you, you. The way you explained to me, you understand me to a T and I finally feel heard. She's like in her mid forties and has never felt understood because she has this amazing creative brain that's going a thousand miles an hour. And she always says to me, like, I always felt out of sorts in elementary school because I was thinking how, you know.

You know, not just like this coloring thing, but like how it could be even better. And, um, and so she's always being told like, okay, like she was, she told me once that someone said to her, you're just too much and like had his hands out at her. And I mean, not that I need that kind of feedback, but it certainly is nice.

Yeah. When someone feels heard or someone feels like, oh, I can do something about this. Like there's a little something that I could do that's gonna, yeah. It's going to change my relationships or it's going to change how I lead my team. And I love kind of those. Of course that feels great. Like when I'm a catalyst for a conversation within a team that allows them to.

To kind of, not bear all, but like kind of share something that they haven't shared before or peel back the onion to figure out how to work better. I love it because I can, I find sometimes I like ask the question then I can step back and they do their thing and you know, it's, it's great. I love that. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yes.

I, I will share as we wrap up here, one of my favorite questions that you've asked me, and you kind of mentioned it earlier, but it's, um, is, is that the truth or is that the story you're telling yourself? And that's something that I, that I've always taken from you of, to remind myself, am I, what am I saying?

Am I just telling myself a story? Have I really thought through it? Have, are these the facts in front of me? Or am I hindering myself by making up these assumptions too? So, yeah. 

Julie Holunga: Yeah, I think once we've talked about like, I remember saying to you like, can you prove that? Or is that just, is that just in your head?

Exactly. 

Anne-Marie Coughlin: Yeah, because we do it. We do it all the time. Yeah, you're not the only one. Julie, this has been so great. I truly appreciate you sharing. I mean, so many different steps for us to go into a conversation, language to use during it and, and how we can really focus on the impact and the outcome that we want to have as senior leaders in organizations to make our teams better, our companies grow, to be successful overall.

So thank you so much for joining us today for all of your insights and thoughts as always. I appreciate it. And um, and yeah, thank you. Absolutely. Thanks for, thanks for being here and thanks for joining us today. Thank you, Anne Marie. It's always fun. Thanks again for listening. Growth Driver is brought to you by the kind and talented people at Intelligent Demand.

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