How Top Enterprises Target Best Fit Accounts with Jeff Ha

Jeff Ha: Look at your close loss reasons and if there's a lot of fit issues. Ben, you probably need to rethink, uh, how, how you're kind of thinking about your ICP.

John Common: Welcome to Growth Driver, brought to you by Intelligent Demand, where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. 

Aaron Owens: Welcome to Growth Driver. Expert deep dives. Today's entire episode is about building an ideal client profile on ICP, and then using that to develop your target account list or TAL. So you'll hear us say ICP and TAL a whole lot today.

Uh, but the whole goal of today's episode is that you walk away from today's conversation, being able to identify who your ideal clients are and have a method for identifying your ideal clients. Exact accounts that, that meet that ICP and be able to tear those accounts and segment those accounts. So, you know, exactly who you should be going after.

And I can't think of a better person to have on today to talk about this conversation than Jeff Haw, who is the chief go to market officer at Rev Intelligence. So Jeff, uh, welcome to Growth Driver Expert Deep Dives. Say hello. 

Jeff Ha: All right, Aaron, thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to, uh, to share what, uh, knowledge I might or might not have about ICPs and TALs, which, uh, are some of my favorite subjects, uh, to talk about, but, uh, yeah, so I'm the Chief Go To Market Officer at Rev Intelligence.

Uh, we, uh, are harnessing the power of AI to help our customers, uh, do exactly what you're describing, right? Better understand their ICP, uh, better understand who they should be targeting, and ultimately, uh, gain the kinds of efficiencies that I think every company is wanting to kind of achieve these days, right?

And kind of our new world and kind of new efficiency requirements. So happy to be here. 

Aaron Owens: Before we dive in, we have, uh, we have a handful of steps today, uh, for developing a really great ICP and a great target account list and segmenting that and tiering that. Before we dive into that, I want us just to talk just a minute about.

an ICP and a TAL does for a company. You already covered it a little bit. You talked about efficient growth and it's, um, it's really, um, uh, it allows, it allows us to know exactly who we're talking to and to be able to tailor that messaging, um, And I think, uh, I don't know from your perspective, Jeff, but one of the things that I see, uh, companies, uh, they're a little short sighted on their ICP.

So an ICP isn't just about, uh, narrowing down your database, but it really is about narrowing down your messaging as well. And, and then, um, when you think about your segmentation, it's really about being able to segment your messaging. And we'll talk a little bit later about. Some really cool ways to segment messaging that are, that are different than the standard industry and, and persona, um, uh, segments.

So what else would you add? Why, why have an ICP? What does an ICP and TAL do? And, and how do you know that you have a good one? 

Jeff Ha: A lot of. People think about ICP as the the who, right? Mm-Hmm. . Who should I be thinking about? Who should I be, be targeting? I, I think the element that, that you kind of brought, uh, in, in kind of what you just said is not just the, the who, but the how.

Right. The ICP should also inform you of, inform how you should engage, uh, with a particular company, right? Knowing their particular behaviors and characteristics, right? So I think it's. It's a level rigor that I think folks aren't accustomed to when they think about ICPs and their towels. Oftentimes it's, it's, it's, you know, the firmographics and then your towel are now the companies that come out of that firmographics Mm-hmm.

And then you're relying on your, whether it's your sales folks or marketing folks to kind of fill in all the gaps and kind of understand the, the how question. And I think. With AI and kind of with all the sophistication, the sophistication now, Aaron, that how question or some of that at least can be answered up front when you think about your ICP, right?

More so now than ever before, because there's just all this information out there. So, so I think it's combining the who and the how is kind of how ICP and TAUs are kind of transforming. kind of in our new world. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. So, so let's dive in then because the first step of, uh, Weebly, the first step of developing a really great ICP is going to feel really familiar to anybody who's gone through this exercise before, because it is just identifying the firmer graphics, uh, of, of an ideal, uh, of an ideal, uh, client.

Um, so I'm curious when you think about the firmer graphic step, what, what are the pieces that are important here? Um, You know, what kinds of firmographic attributes should be considered? And are there any that maybe used to be important, but kind of are silly now? 

Jeff Ha: Yeah, it's, I think firmographic has its place for sure, Aaron.

It's not something to be thrown out, uh, with, with the bathwater as they say. Um, but I, I treat firmographics as kind of, you know, call it, uh, guardrails or just guidance more than absolute. Right. And so for example, like this is the argument I always have with somebody, right, well, they'll tell me, well, part of our ICP is a company that has.

500 or more employees. Well, what if they have 480? Does that no longer make them part of your ICP because they have 20 less? You know, it's, it's, it's, maybe it's a ridiculous kind of argument. Like I said, it's, it should be a guardrail or guidance, not an absolute, right. When it comes to firmographics, right.

It's like, well, you're kind of, you're in that particular zone where, Hey, 480, 500 employees probably represents a particular behavior, right? Not the fact that they have 500 employees that makes them out. Right. Yeah. 

Aaron Owens: Um, yeah, that's great. 

Jeff Ha: Yeah. So I don't know if you've experienced that, but I think there's some of that kind of mentality where it's, it's absolute, right?

It's like, well, it has to be within a certain revenue range. Well, I'm like, that's good, but what if the revenue is inaccurate? Or what if, You know, again, same question, right? If you're looking for something over 10 million, what if it's 9 million? Does that make them a non fit customer? Probably not. So, so the things that we typically get into when, when we ask and customers kind of bring up firmographics as their starting point is to ask them the why, right?

Why, why 500 employees? What characteristics Does a 500 employee company have that's meaningful to you? What characteristics does a 10 million company have that's meaningful to you that makes them a good fit prospect for you? 

Aaron Owens: So this is where, um, we'll sometimes use, use firmographics. Say, well, look, a company that's a billion dollar a year, a company, they, you know, there are probably going to be, differences in how they buy from a company that's 5 million a year, even if, even if the average contract value is going to be the same, even if they're both going to be spending, you know, 500 grand a year with your company, they're going to probably purchase that a little bit different.

So I think, so when we think about firmographics, it really is from a, a segmentation perspective to segment things like use cases and like, you know, who who's likely to be on that buying committee. But again, Those are all still proxies. So if there's other ways to get those, that's better. But that's the role that we see that firmographics can play still.

So that's firmographics. Uh, number two is technographics. Now, a lot of people that technographics are not new. They've been around for a while. You know, most smart marketers and, and, and go to market leaders are including technographics already in their ideal client profile. But from your perspective, what is a technographic and what are the kinds of things that it can, that it can tell you about a, uh, about a target account?

Jeff Ha: Yeah, I. I think technographics is, is a, is a very good signal, right? Uh, and it does a very good job, especially when, you know, let's say the product or the services that you're selling require a particular technology to be installed, right? At a customer. So it's a very strong signal. Right. And, and I think it's, it's one of those where I think it's, it's, it should definitely be part of how one thinks about their ICP if technographics is available, right?

Uh, for, you know, whatever, again, products or services, uh, that you're selling. So, so good signal. I think it's, it's obviously, it's one of those things that if it's available, it's awesome. Yeah. Right. Because it kind of helps you separate the ones where, Hey, it could be very relevant to the ones that, you know, maybe not now.

Right. Right. Where I spend my time. Yeah. Um, I think the bigger question, Aaron, I'm curious how, how some of your customers deal with it. Yeah. What if they don't? What if the products and services I'm selling don't work? aren't isn't amenable to a technographic signal. What do I do then? 

Aaron Owens: Right. Yeah. Great.

Well, we get that a lot. So, uh, it's actually probably the majority of our clients are not, you know, we don't necessarily have, uh, we aren't over indexed on SAS companies for instance, rather we do have tech companies. Tech clients. But, um, yeah, the thing that we say is that, you know, we use again, uh, technographics can sometimes be a proxy, you know, and so, um, and some of the technographic data is included in some of the extra graphics that we, that we develop with these custom signals and things that we look for.

And we'll talk about that here in just a, just a second. But, you know, for us, you know, technographics aren't just about looking for, you know, do they have the technology that my. Platform needs to plug into, um, or sometimes, you know, do they have a competitor technology, uh, we'll, we'll use that in the cases where it's relevant, but it also helps us to understand what kind of investment priorities a company is making.

You know, if they, if there is a difference in a, in a company that uses Salesforce versus HubSpot as their CRM, for instance, there's just a difference in how they think about and approach, um, their sales organization there. There are differences in companies who, um. You know, use enterprise grade tools versus SMB tools.

And so, and, and back to our point about firmographics, you know, there are, we've worked with very large enterprises that use HubSpot and we've worked with very small companies that use Eloqua, you know, so it's not like, um, you know, uh, the size of the company is the only thing that matters, but knowing what kinds of tools they're investing in will tell us a little bit about their personality and a little bit about what their priorities are and their appetite for, for technology and for, um, you know, thinking differently or, you know, doing things the right way, you know, quote unquote, right way, you know, 

Jeff Ha: for sure.

Yeah. And you bring up a good point, Aaron. And it's, it reminds me that, you know, we, we come across situations with our customers where, you know, technographics is a signal that's important. And, you know, I think what we've learned is that there's, there's a spectrum also, right? So for example, like AWS comes up a lot, right?

Just lots of providers that, you know, look for AWS as a technographic signal, but you can also imagine there's a lot of companies that use AWS. So one of the things that we kind of encourage our customers to think about is not just whether it's a yes or no, but to what degree. Right, and that can help.

Interesting. Yeah. Again, answer the how question, right? Not just the who. Yes, the Technographic will tell you who it is, but also the degree of which they invest in like an AWS Cloud infrastructure can also inform you of how you communicate with them, right? Someone who's very light on their investment versus someone who's all in on, on AWS.

You know, you probably want to have a different message, uh, right. So it's not just black or white when it comes to technographics. It's to what degree. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah. So, so that's interesting. And that's, I think a really compelling argument and I'm curious, is that, is getting that information, because oftentimes, you know, I mean, we're, we're both familiar with news data, you know, with, with data sources and things that are out there, oftentimes those sources are, you know, Boolean, you know, uh, how would, so is it a, is it a, a sales qualification exercise to figure out how they're using these or is there some other way to be able to get to that data?

Jeff Ha: Yeah, it's, it's, it's a great question, Aaron. And, and it used to be, yes, it's a sales qualification question, right? That's like a decade ago. That's, you know, again, ICP tells you the who and everybody else, you figure out everything else. Right. Once I tell you that. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah. 

Jeff Ha: I think now because of just. All the information available.

So, so one example, Aaron, would be, you look at employee data, right? Now, employee data, you know, it's available. You can look at people's resumes, right? It's, it's, it's out there for you to examine. And, and one of the ways that you can imagine looking at the degree of which a company makes an investment is the kinds of people and the expertise that, uh, they have.

So if a company has. 20 people on staff that have AWS in their title. Again, just a very simplified example. Well, that's a heck of a lot more than the same size company that has one person with an AWS. But you see what I'm saying? Like you can start, you know, it's sure. It's still, it is a proxy, but I would argue with you that a company that has 20 people with AWS in their title, Gosh, that's says something about that comparatively to a company that has zero to none, right?

Yeah. Employee with an AWS in their title. Um, you can look at hiring data and kind of build the same kind of, again, proxy to understand their, their level of investment with a particular technology, right? That information is available. It's just. getting to it, harnessing it and all that kind of stuff.

Right. Um, so, so, so I think the job now is with the tech available, going back to like, who's responsible for this. A lot of that questions could be answered earlier in the, in the process, right. Where sales reps now don't have to do the qualification. They're coming in with an understanding and, you know, they're just kind of more confirming, right, that this is kind of what I understand your environment to be versus, hey, tell me about your cloud infrastructure, right?

Uh, so I think information is there for sure. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah. And you, you hit on something there too, that I think is an important point globally here with this. The whole, but the goal of doing this really nailing your ICP and getting better at targeting really is, you know, we talked earlier about efficiency, but one way that that shows up is that it means that when your sales team is reaching out to engage with a prospect, you are even more certain that they are qualified.

They may not be open. They may not be in a buying. Um, process. I mean, all those things could be true. They could have no awareness of your brand, but at least, you know, that they are, um, that, uh, that, that is not a wasted conversation and that you aren't going to find out, Oh, they just, you know, they use Excel as their CRM.

So I can't, I can't sell them anything. Yeah. Um, Well, all of that kind of leads us to exographics now, which really is, is your sweet spot. So, um, so tell us a little bit about, so we've sort of teed up a lot of, a lot of things here where we said, well, these are proxies for this. These are proxies for this.

And, um, and really brings us to exographics. I, I want to just let you introduce what is exographics, um, you know, rev intelligence is really at the forefront of this. So, you know, tell us what. What is it? How? How is it different? What are you trying to accomplish with Exographics? Then we'll dive into how to use them 

Jeff Ha: for sure.

And so Exographics is, is what we consider a class of signals that helps you better understand a company's behavior at the end of the day, right? So very much akin to psychographics on, on the B2C side, right? Where you're trying to understand from a consumer standpoint, what's their preferences. How, what, you know, where do they visit?

Uh, you know, are they equal friendly? Are they, you know, all that kind of stuff that was available. Exographic is that equivalent for the B2B side where, Hey, you want to know, for example, for a company, where are they on the adoption curve? Are they an early adopter or a late adopter, right? Are they tech centric or not?

So those types of questions that can better inform you as to whether a company is going to be better suited for your products and services or not is really what exographics is about, right? It's, it's behavioral characteristics that we've been able to, to classify using AI and obviously a lot of pattern matching and kind of feeding into large models, but ultimately it's pulling out from just.

all the digital footprints of companies, right? How they talk about themselves, their company summaries, the people that work for them, the people that they hire. So using all of those data sources to identify characteristics that are out of the box, but also the ability for one to kind of derive a characteristic on their own as well, right?

And build a custom signal. So that's the class of exographics, which is Company behavior, uh, data points. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah, I love that. So, you know, you, you mentioned, uh, one particular extra graphic, which is, you know, are they an early or late adopter of, of new innovation, new technologies. And I think that's great because when you have, um, and we use that oftentimes, sometimes for targeting, sometimes say, You know, and here's the other thing we tell our clients too, is that you're not always looking for high on these signals.

Like you're not looking, always looking for an early adopter of new technology. We have a lot of clients who they are selling, you know, tried and true stable things, you know, against these sort of innovative, um, you know, innovators. So you, you, you want to prioritize those who are late adopters of new technology.

Um, but you know, they, Late adopters and early adopters, they're going to purchase things differently. So again, even if you're not selling new technology, understanding how a company approaches, um, you know, making new hiring decision or not, uh, new purchasing decisions, new investment decisions, um, and where they put their budget that can still be relevant, whether you're selling a new technology or whether you're selling, you know, accounting services that are a little bit different than, um, than the tried and true.

That's, that's exactly 

Jeff Ha: right, Aaron. And it goes back to the how question, right? Is by knowing where they are on the adoption curve, probably can influence how you market to them, the messaging that you use, right? Early adopters want a certain kind of message and late adopters want more kind of comfort and the fact that everybody else is using your product, right?

Yeah, you're late, you're late. Yeah, right? Like, it doesn't mean you can't sell to either of them. It just means your approach. Right, is now better informed because you have an understanding of this characteristic that you didn't have before. 

John Common: How many times have you heard or thought or said that B2B creative and content sucks?

Raise your hand. We've all thought it. We've all said it. We've all seen it. How do you change it is the question. Look, at the end of the day, all the tech, all the content, all the strategy, all the media planning, all the meetings. Thanks. Don't matter. They're there in support of real human moments. The other word for that is courageous creative.

If you're ready to get courageous with your creative and move the needle with your creative strategy, your messaging, your content, your calls to action, and do it in highly relevant, personalized ways, Go to intelligent demand. com book a meeting with a growth expert. Let's break it down. 

Aaron Owens: So we've talked all about, um, you know, all of these relatively stable attributes of a company, right?

So a company's revenue is not going to change a whole lot. Super quickly. Their number of employees are going to change. The technology they're using will evolve, but it's not going to shift from one month to the next. But there are things that change very, very quickly. So for instance, bringing in new leadership, making an acquisition, you know, going through a round of layoffs, getting a round of funding.

Those are all those are all things that can dramatically change the nature of demand, the demand environment within an account. So talk to us a little bit about about yeah. What are the kinds of events that you see really do, um, shake up demand either by totally closing off demand or even better things that are opening up demand, um, that should, you know, raise a company's prioritization in your perspective.

Jeff Ha: So traditionally the events are around things like funding, right? Where like I said, 10 years ago, I remember I was managing a group of SDRs and we'd always be like, Hey, just kind of, you know, make sure that, you know, you, you kind of scan the airways and anytime a company gets funded, you should be hitting them up.

Right. Because they have money now. Right. Does it mean they're going to buy now? Right. But at least that was a kind of a rudimentary way of saying like, Hey, the company has budget, right. That was a decade ago. Right. And I think funding events is still kind of something you want to pay attention to and such.

But yeah, you look at the kind of like the hierarchy of, of kind of events and, and kind of. event signals, leadership hiring is often is crucial, right? You know, they hire a new chief information security officer. Is that good or bad for your company? Well, I don't know. It just depends, right? But knowing that that event has happened is something to pay attention to, right?

Obviously, other kinds of leadership is important. Um, and then you kind of go down, right? Which is like, okay, then what's like another event, depending on, again, on the products or services that you're selling, whether a company opens or closes physical offices. Um, and I think that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of interesting to know.

Uh, if a company has decided to go and do 100 percent fully remote work instead of, you know, having physical offices, well, imagine you're selling a product that caters to a remote work environment and a company just decides that we're going fully remote. Well, that's a really important signal for you, right?

Because now that means they're a fit. Whereas before, hey, I couldn't serve them because they were all kind of. Getting together in, in a, in a physical office space, right? So, so you can imagine there's all kinds of events that are relevant for, again, depending on the products and services that you're selling, hiring is.

An event, if you really think about it, right, Aaron, it's like, they might not have, let's say, made the hire yet, but the fact that they're hiring and going through that activity, you know, is an event signal that you should be paying attention to, especially if you're hiring for, uh, something that is relevant to you.

Right. You should, you should be paying attention to that event, uh, signal 

Aaron Owens: or, or, or combining with what you said earlier, you know, are, are they hiring a bunch of AWS people at a company that didn't have AWS before that probably means something very different. 

Jeff Ha: One of the things I truly hate when I look at our CRM and I look at opportunity closed reason is when it says not a fit, like I cannot stand that now, right?

When it says not a fit, not a fit, not a fit. To me, it tells me you have an ICP. definition problem, right? Because if, if you're defining, Hey, this is my ideal customer profile and your, and your salespeople are telling you all of these are not a fit, then there's, there's the disconnect between kind of what's, what's reality and what you're thinking.

Right. So, so that's kind of one of the tangible takeaways is like, look at your close loss reasons. And if there's a lot of fit issues, Then you probably need to rethink, uh, how, how you're kind of thinking about your ICP. Right. Yeah. Sense there. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah. I agree. The other, the other area that we see is impacted by that sometimes is how they're defining their buying committee, you know, so, um, you know, how often we've all seen where you might be a great fit for a company, but a terrible fit for the two people you're talking to at that company.

They just don't, they don't know what they're looking for. 

Jeff Ha: I think you bring up a good point, Aaron, which is. It's not a one touch, right? Which is another kind of fallacy with, with some customers is like, well, you know, if we get our AICP right, boom, all of a sudden magic happens, right? And that's not the case, right?

There's still a process. You still got to think about how you interact with them, the right content at the right time, right? None of that goes away. Like what we're trying to eliminate here with. I'm thinking of improving your ICP is, is really the efficiency of kind of all the downstream efforts, right?

Again, I go back to the, not a fit. How many of those not a fit close loss opportunities can you eliminate every month? Right. If you can eliminate 50, 50 percent of it, I bet you, your efficiency is going to go up, right? Because you're just not spending time on, on folks that aren't, aren't going to ultimately buy your solution in the first place.

Aaron Owens: Yeah, that's right. Well, that kind of brings us a little bit into, uh, uh, the, this, this final topic of tiering and segmentation and, and how to, um, you know, how to take this, this list. So use your ICP, come up with a total relevant market. You decide, you know, which accounts are in that total relevant market.

You want to add to your, uh, Target account lists. And, you know, we see target account lists of all sizes, but generally like a total target account list is probably going to be around a thousand accounts for us, generally speaking. And then we tear that down where we'll have, um, you know, you have your tier ones who are one to one.

You know, one-to-one level of investment, you maybe have 10 to 20 accounts that are on there. Yep. One to few. You might have 100 to 200 accounts on there. And then the rest are in this one to many motion. And um, and so then when we think about tiering, obviously. You want to prioritize those accounts that are going to be the most valuable to you.

And value, we see value on, on two different dimensions. One is monetary value, meaning like how big is the contract going to be? Obviously accounts that are going to have a 500, 000 contract are more valuable than a 50, 000 contract. That's obvious. But there might be, you might say that, well, an account that's going to be making a purchasing decision in the next 90 days for 300, 000 might be worth more to me this quarter in investing than a company that's going to make a half million dollar investment in two years, you know?

And so, um, and so I'm just curious when you think about tiering and segmentation, what are the kinds of factors that should, Feed into, you know, what level of investment you're making towards them. So let's just start there with tiering. And then we'll talk about segmentation, which is sort of from like a messaging and experience.

Jeff Ha: So I think this is where prioritization becomes really important. If you're going to be doing tiering and for us. I think a lot of what we've seen around the prioritization, Aaron, comes around understanding the, like, which signals are, are call it more truly predictive of success for you. Right. And right.

And oftentimes what we've seen, Aaron, is there's, there's probably, you know, three, four, maybe, you know, A set of five different signals that, you know, if all five are present, gosh, right? Right. You pick up the phone, right? And, and, and talk to the person, but that's rarely the case, right? Where, or that's true.

But if you have these set of signals that, you know, like I said, you can see that are, are. predictive of success, then that's kind of where prioritization starts, right? To say, okay, these are the right signals. And then now you just kind of go down this kind of logic tree, right? Which is obviously I want all these signals to be present.

That goes to the top of my list, you know, three out of four, two out of four, whatever the case may be. And then that gets a little bit lower, right? Because it becomes, there's kind of less confidence that, you know, know, be a great prospect right away. And probably one of those signals has to do with like some level of urgency or event, like you mentioned, right?

Which is, Hey, we, they recently had a sea level change or they recently hired these kinds of people or they recently opened. An office, you know, somewhere. So using one of those signals is event based where, you know, you know, that like, Hey, the timing is good that we should be reaching out versus if they don't have that event kind of base signal, that kind of triggers urgency, then it might be, you know, move them down to a more nurturing type thing where, you know, when ready, then.

Know, we, we kind of move up the priority. Yeah. So that's kinda how we, we think about it. Is, is using signals to kind of have, have a kind of data-driven approach to, to prioritization. 

Aaron Owens: The last thing I wanted to talk about is just how to segment. So we've teased this a little bit. Yeah. You know, uh, b back in the beginning of, of, I'm sure both of our B2B day, certainly I can re relate to this, where, you know, when we were segmenting we would segment off of industry.

We would segment sometimes off of regions. We would segment sometimes off of, um, you know, uh, if we were really smart, maybe off of buying committee or like decision maker, um, but, but, you know, persona or whatever, but, um, What we're able to do now is so much more sophisticated and so much more relevant to the individuals to the account.

So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how can companies use the data that they're like these exographic signals that they're getting, whether it's company attributes or event signals or intent data, how can they use all of that to be able to segment in a smarter way that is really. Doing a better job at putting a truly relevant message in front of the right, the right buyers.

Jeff Ha: Some of the folks I talk to, the end concern is like, well, awesome. You can do all this segmentation for me. Now I got to go out and, you know, create a bunch of content, right? That kind of matches to that. And, you know, what I advise them is like, well, let's start with your content then. Right. So if, if, if you feel like your content is really good, and most of the time, they actually, most of our customers have really good content that they've developed, then let's start there, Aaron.

Let's start with kind of inventorying, but your different content pieces, and then let's then match the signals That would be appropriate to each content piece. And by naturally by doing that, you'll naturally create segmentations that already have a, call it an alignment with your content, so you're not creating segments and all of a sudden having to create a bunch of content if you're missing it, but let's start with what you already have, align the signals to it.

And then the segmentations will just naturally flow that way because. Your signals dictate who belongs in that particular segment. 

Aaron Owens: Yeah, I think it's really great. And, you know, we will oftentimes when we're engaging with a new client do, you know, an MVP play where we're getting what the goal is to get to market as quick as possible.

You know, a little bit, a little bit better strategy, a little bit better approach, um, but, you know, using existing content, using existing strategy in other places. So I think that's a great fit for that. And then when the question becomes, okay, well, what content should we be investing in? You know, if we're going to be developing content.

Where are our content gaps? That's where we start to look at. You know, what are the segments that are most valuable to us? Where are we underserving them along the buyer's journey? Um, you know, a lot of our clients find that they do a lot of, they have a lot of great acquisition content, not a lot of great retention and expansion content, you know, so we'll, we'll, um, we'll lean in there.

But, um, yeah, I think that's, I think that's, that's awesome advice. Jeff, this has been a really fantastic conversation. And I think that, um, for our listeners, the key here is just to, um, as you are developing your ICP, you want to start with firmographics. There's, there's value in firmographics though, maybe not as much as, as, uh, um, you know, we, we want.

Relied on from a graphics only because we didn't have anything else. We use it as a proxy for stuff that we can get a lot closer to now. Look, look at technographics, even if you aren't selling a technology platform and make sure you're looking at, um, you know, compliments to your technology, replacements to your technology, or, or things that indicate investments in the kinds of concerns that you help to solve as well.

Um, uh, and then, uh, looking at extra graphics. So using a platform like rev intelligence. Um, and of course there are others out there as well. We have Jeff here today. So we love, we use rev intelligence a lot at ID. Um, Jeff's team or us at ID can, can help, uh, kind of give you a peek inside the platform and give you a taste of the kinds of things that we can do.

Um, but something that helps you to take all of the available signals that are out there and apply AI to be able to turn it into real insights to understand the personality profile of these accounts that you're going after so that you're, um, you know, going after early adopters. Or late adopters, whatever is most appropriate or whatever the, you know, 300 different, uh, exographic, uh, attributes are, and then think about, uh, events, what are the kinds of events, whether it's, uh, new hires, hiring, um, campaigns, you know, new hires at the top, new hires at the bottom, um, uh, uh, a lot of hiring activity, um, uh, Closing offices, all those sort of think of the kinds of events that would indicate somebody who is in desperate need of your solution or who would be a better fit for your solution.

Um, and then, uh, and then tier based off of their, their timely value to you, but then segment based off of their, their. Um, you know, what's important to them, the messaging and, um, and to Jeff's point, think about which segments you're able to serve the best now and start there and grow from there. So Jeff, anything else in that summary that you would add?

Jeff Ha: No, that's fantastic, Aaron. You know, I, for me, like my, our motto is, you know, we should have an allergic reaction, right? When we come across opportunities that are not a fit. Right. We should, you know, it should be like the plague to us. So I think if, if folks have that kind of mentality and dig deeper into their ICP, I think what they're going to learn is that they're going to see less and less of those not a fit close lost opportunities and, and kind of better outcomes.

So that's, that's what we're trying to achieve, right. It's just better efficiency at the end of the day, 

Aaron Owens: better efficiency, sustainable growth. There you go. Thanks a lot, Jeff. Have a great day. Thanks you guys for listening and we'll see you on the next, the next expert deep dive session. Bye bye. 

Jeff Ha: All right.

Thanks, Aaron. Bye, everyone.