From Launch to Lifetime Value: Rethinking Product Marketing with Sam Melnick

Sam Melnick: You can have product market fit, but then you can also lose it. So you have to defend it.

John Common: Welcome to Growth Driver brought to you by Intelligent Demand, where the best minds in B2B are redefining growth. Hey everybody, John Common here. You know, modern go to market, obviously, we now know this, especially in B2B, it's all about aligning and synchronizing the actions, the skills, the talents, the resources, the budgets.

Across. Brand, marketing and growth. Marketing and sales and CS and operations and finance. Oh, and did I forget to mention product? And that's what we're gonna dig into today is the product piece of modern go to market with my friend Sam Melnick. Uh, he's currently. Uh, the vice president of product marketing at PostScript.

And prior to that, he was VP of marketing and CS at Allocadia. And he's worked in product marketing and customer success and analyst roles and consulting roles prior to that. He is super experienced. He is super smart. He is a great human being. And I really love talking to him. Sam, welcome to Growth Drive, everybody.

Sam Melnick: Thanks, John. I really appreciate you having me. And, um, yeah, you make me sound pretty good. 

John Common: You are though. You are own it, man. Own it. So, hey, what's, uh, what's been happening, uh, at PostScript lately? I know you and your team have been busy as shit. Uh, why don't you tell everybody a little bit, just a tiny bit about what PostScript is, what problem you solve and what you and your PM team have been doing lately.

Sam Melnick: Yeah, sure. So Postscript, we live in the Shopify ecosystem and we help Shopify merchants and brands make more money via SMS or text messaging. So it's another beautiful, uh, direct marketing channel. And we are busy bringing, helping our product or bring new, uh, features and product to market and helping the sales and customer success or bring value to customers and help them make more money.

John Common: Yeah, sounds right to me. Um. So what's a major project or two that you and the team have been, uh, working? 

Sam Melnick: Yeah, yeah. So I guess in the last year we've had a new chief product officer come on. She joined in February and. She's a fabulous executive. And since then, our product velocity is picked up considerably.

So what that means is like product marketing really lives in this middle ground or this like Venn diagram between go to market between the customer and between product. And you have to kind of feed each one of those, but you're more focused. I find in one area. Depending on like the season and this season has been more focused partnering with our product org to bring new and innovative product to market.

So we've launched a couple of new AI features. We've had another tier one launch, um, around a part of our product that we now have a patent on it. So really it's been about. Working with our counterparts and product, figuring out how we're uniquely differentiated in position where we bring these new products to market and doing so to help both our customers win and make more money, but also bring more money into Postscript as well.

John Common: Sounds like a pretty decent, uh, mission statement for the role of product marketing right there. Um, so I want to zoom out a little bit and start to engage that big old brain of yours on, um, something that I think, um, those of us who geek out about B2B growth. Um, have been noticing more and more and more over the last, uh, I'm going to say five years and it's the topic of go to market.

So let me see if I can tee it up when I was a younger man who had hair on the top of his head, uh, in, in the early part of my career, the phrase go to market largely meant, um, a PowerPoint deck that a product manager would. Put together fever feverishly as they launch often a new product or a new feature and then it would It would be you know Moderately looked at by certain people in the company and then largely ignored the rest of the time and that was how And then and I know I'm selling it short Yeah.

Purposely and viciously, but literally go to market used to mean that thing we do when we launch a product. We know that that doesn't, it is, we're way past that now, but I want to ask you, how do you, as an, as an expert in product marketing. How do you have a more modern definition? How do you define go to market?

Sam Melnick: Yeah. So like, I think like even at PostScript, like we think of our revenue facing teams and that means the BDR or the marketing team, customer success, even customer support, of course, sales as the go to market organization, we have a channel in Slack that's like hashtag GTM. We have a revenue kickoff that's coming up in February where majority of those folks are.

So I think like the first thing is like. Go to market isn't like a plan. It's like it's a part of the organization and that means it's the people. It's the process. It's the, the like activity. It's the alignment. So I think that's the first thing of like, if you're thinking about go to market, it's got to be like, start.

At that level, because like, you can't just put a plan on a PowerPoint slide or a memo or whatnot, expect something to happen. It almost has to be a mindset. So I think that's the first thing I think about. 

John Common: Yeah. And, and, and so, and would you, would you agree, it sounds like this, but I want to make sure, do you define go to market as cross functional?

So it's, in fact, what are the, what are, what are the main, when you think about even at your company right now? What departments are in, uh, go to market? 

Sam Melnick: Yeah, so we have, of course, the sales org. We have the marketing organization, and then we have the customer success organization. And when I think about, like, the customer success organization, that's both customer success managers, Who are like the facing the day to day with the customers and account managers who are more commercially and then you start having folks like an additional like services layer, they could be part of go to market and then customer support kind of like straddled that.

But I'd say the three main areas are. Marketing success, customer success, and sales there. And then you have like op operations or business intelligence are supporting functions, but not necessarily always part of go to market depends on the org. 

John Common: Uh, interestingly, you didn't mention product. Was that an oversight or would you say no product is not part of it?

Sam Melnick: Um, that's a good question. When I think about it, at least that the organization is it's not part of it. But I think product needs to be part of go to market and that go to market motion. And I think that's like, you know, product product marketing. Every org is going to be different. That's one of the like.

My like challenges, but also most interesting things about product and product marketing and for me product marketing But like when I think about it is like product and product marketing are like, you know Arm and arm and product marketing to me One of our core jobs is to work directly with product to make sure that they're integrated and tied into the go to market motion and so like whereas they're building a And like understanding what, what are the requirements?

What's the value we need to bring to customers? What's the market opportunity product marketing saying, okay, look, what's the unique positioning, how do we fit this into the sales motion? How do we pitch it? Um, there's probably partnerships around, like, what's the total addressable market or TAM. There's probably partnerships around, like, pricing.

But, like, I see product marketing as that conduit that's making, not making sure, but helping the product counterpart be as deeply integrated into that, like, go to market team and motion as possible. Now this is going to be different between every single product marketing and product org you talk to out there.

That's my one. That's my one of my caveats 

John Common: Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, well, let's talk about that because I want to I want to double click in on this so um because the way you just defined the central role of product marketing or at least one of the central roles is The it sounds like you're saying I as a product marketing Function have one foot planted in growth and go to market, but I've got the other foot planted literally in the product org, and I'm the middleware between how we commercialize, go to market, drive revenue, growth, and customer outcomes on one side, and then making sure that the product org has what they need to do the first part to do the growth part.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. And you're seeing the different orbs. And the third foot is 

Sam Melnick: in the market with the customer or with analysts or whatnot too. So, yeah. Right. We just created a three legged human 

John Common: and I like that. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Don't forget the customer. Not a bad, uh, not a bad takeaway there. Um, so what are the, what are the major flavors, uh, of how you divvy up or, uh, the work between product, product marketing, uh, and that you've seen in your career?

Sam Melnick: Yeah, I mean, again, like if you were to go talk like pragmatic marketer or pragmatic has like this whole chart and I can remember like, I don't know, there's a great product marketing, uh, leader director that worked with me at Allocadia and she came in. And she was like, here's where, like, she took out this chart and like, if you look at the chart, there's like 36 different boxes and she's like, this is product, this is product marketing.

And like, she was fantastic. And she had opinions there. So like that, those boxes can, some, some of them 34 out of 36 in some words will sit in product. Whereas like two, which is like, you know, maybe like go to market readiness and like launch or whatever sit in product marketing. Others it's equally split.

But like where I like to see it is like, when I think about it, it's like product. Is ideally working with the customer, working with the internal team sales, customer success and understanding like company vision and where we're trying to go and figuring out what are the requirements of the widget like I've been in software.

So the software we're trying to build to like check off all of those different requirements. And then how do we. Then go to engineering, go to design, and create that thing that's going to accomplish those goals. Whereas product marketing is part of those conversations, but like product management is determining requirements.

Sure, product marketing can like influence, have ideas, and they should be, but then it's like product marketing is like, okay, We're going to bring this thing to market in one way, go to market in one way. It could be a million, you know, probably 37 different ways to go to market. But it's like, what is our unique value prop in market?

How do we explain that in the most simplest meaningful terms to our customers and our prospects? And what are the channels or ways to bring it to market and defining that motion? So to me, it's like you're taking The thing like it's not used to be that you like literally it's a handoff. This is totally integrated But like product marketing is like like instead of being in the passenger seat Moves to the driver's seat when it's time to say, okay How are we going to like ta like monetize this over the long term?

um, and like i've spent time working with like sales leadership on like even like how do we how do we um define quota Retirement on a new product or a way we're packaging to incentivize sales reps to like put these things front and center and like that could be product. But like, I see that as like product marketing thing.

Okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Different ways we could bring this market and we want to make sure sales is pitching this. So like, how can we do that? I'm working with the VP sales on that. So a bit of a long answer, but hopefully helpful. 

John Common: No, no, very, very much. Yeah, no, that's, that's really good.

You know, uh, so now we're zooming in on product marketing and, and as, as we have this conversation today, Sam, let's, um, let's you and I. focus on larger organizations, right? Cause I think there's a lot of content out there that is for startups. And I, I love that, but, um, and I, and I get into it too, but I think the, the, the folks who listen to growth driver tend to be a more mature mid and later cycle cycle companies.

And so the role of product marketing in those kinds of technology Specific or technology driven enterprise orgs. So that's the landscape. What are the top two or three metrics and those companies that you would say, if I had my way, product marketing success or failure would be measured by these two or three KPIs?

Sam Melnick: Yeah, I think of the larger organizations. There are and like, I think of like super large, I think of, you know, like a sales force room, but they're like, they're not all going to be that large, but it's like, you're gonna be, um, often there's a part of product marketing that's going to be aligned to a specific business unit, product line or segment and to me, it starts with like, Okay.

And assuming product marketing sits in the marketing or pipeline, so like delivering a pipeline and it's not in the sense of not in the same way that like demand Janice where it's like, get me the latest, it's more like how as a business unit am I partnering with like the partner, the product counterparts who sometimes act as the GM and my like literal like GM or sales lead or marketing lead for that business unit, that geo to make sure we have That pipeline, um, failed because like, uh, I have a good friend of mine and mentor, uh, Jocelyn Brown used to say pipeline saves lives and that's the case.

And particularly at these larger orgs where you start getting more specialized. It's like, does your business unit. Have that, like, do you have the juice to get you there for that quarter of that year? Um, I think that's like, you say top two, I think it's that, like, I'll just go with one. 

John Common: Wow. Well, okay.

That's great. So I'm not surprised to hear that. And you didn't say this, but would you imply, are you implying also that it's ICP pipeline? 

Sam Melnick: Yes. Yes. Like, and I think that's where it's like the difference between like, when I said, like, it's not the same as demand gen. It's like, That's where product marketing comes in.

It's like helping like demand gen or the BDR org or the sales org narrow the focus to the right level to go get pipe and revenue in the most efficient way possible. And the most efficient way to do that is sell to the ICP because you've built the product that way. Ideally, you've messaged and positioned that way.

You're targeting them and then it makes it easier for those folks like down life cycle again where they're running a marketing campaign where they're doing a BDR outreach where they're running a sales cycle to like move through that next like stage because like again, right person, right message, right time.

Yeah. Creates pipeline. 

John Common: I'd ideally, well, it creates pipeline if they're in a buying mode, but it, but it might not if they're not in a buying mode. Right. And that leads to kind of sort of leading myself to my quick next question with you, which is a product marketers. Number one KPI according to Sam should be ICP pipeline.

So I'm going to ask you about what about what does product marketing have a role for those who are not actively buying and therefore. And in shooting distance of actually generating ICP pipeline. And what I'm getting at is things like, um, awareness, preference, willingness to be on the short list, put you on the short list.

Talk to me about product marketing's role there. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah. I mean, I think like, it's like product marketing should be like working with the other counterparts to see the market as well, because I guess almost like. Um, I think about, like, I come, like, I worked several years at IDC, I've worked with the folks at Forrester and Gartner on the, like, practitioner side, and so you think about, like, category creation, I don't know if it's all, like, the rage anymore, but, like, to build that relationship and to, like, Get, um, make like meaningful momentum with analysts.

It takes years, like two to three years. And it's not dissimilar to particularly B2B enterprise selling. It's like sometimes the buying cycle is only once every two to three years. Right. So making sure that like, when you talk about ICP and ICP pipeline, making sure it's like, again, You're in the right places at the right events.

Is it the right ecosystems, the right communities, right? Agency partners as well, though, that they're aware of you understanding your problems. Cause like, that's another big thing of product marketing where it's like demand gen. It's like, Hey, we got to run a campaign. We get leads. We got to drive pipe. We got to let go.

We got a quarterly number. It's not that product marketing doesn't have that, but it's more like part of the job is like, oh, okay. You're not ready to buy. Why not? What is important to you? Are you happy with your current vendor? Who, like, do you work with John to figure out what your next year's tech roadmap is?

Like, understanding all of that is, like, so core to product marketing. And ideally, they're working with product to have those conversations, too. Because, like, for, like, if you're selling B2B enterprise tech, it's like, you know, I can't remember like, uh, Katie, there is one, a big multi billion dollar company.

We see them every year at a big comp, like industry conference. And we talked to them and we'd understand what they're doing, understand how they're like changing their own tech. They bought, they were built it internally, but like some of the requirements they bring, like they talk about, we'd be like, we bring that back to the product or it's like.

Maybe that makes the list because we know that like that is icp for us That is a quarter maybe a year make it year maker of a deal and that's important input. 

John Common: Yeah. Okay, so icp pipeline Uh king of them all that's the king kpi What i'm hearing you say is product marketing absolutely has a role to play in seeding the market Awareness preference making it to the short list for when a member of your icp Does start to enter active demand mode.

So I hear that i'm not surprised that makes sense Let me two other kind of kpi related things because I think it's so important And clarifying when you talk, talk about a role to be like, how does that role succeed? You know what I mean? That's right. But that's what I'm getting at here. So what about, uh, sales conversion?

So there's pipeline, but what if we're not winning that pipeline? So it's, so it's sales enablement, sales tools. Talk to me about that. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah. So like, I think there's two other things. Like when I think about product marketing, someone asked me like, what's product marketing job? I'm like, well, it's to make sure the company makes revenue and there's multiple ways to make revenue.

Yeah. It's renewal. It's, uh, upsell, cross sell, so NDR, and then it's net new, but it's like, rarely is product marketing going to be able to like, say, all right, I brought in a new deal, but it's like, it's items like what you were just talking about. It's like, is your sales conversion rate going up? Because if you've seeded the market correctly, if you've been able to define your ICP correctly, if you've positioned correctly, you should be able to convert at a higher rate.

Similarly. Velocity, your sales cycle velocity should go up because like again, if you've seeded the market and work with this, you know, built a relationship over three years with this enterprise prospect, once they're ready to buy, it should move a heck of a lot faster than like the average opportunity of a 10 billion prospect who maybe hasn't had that same seating or might be right outside of the ICP.

It's also good to understand like what a conversion rates or velocity look. Like for companies like with prospects within your ICP versus without your eyes outside your ICP. That's one thing that I like to do. It's like compare some of these metrics of like in ICP versus out. Cause like ideally that in ICP is a higher average contract value.

That's another one faster velocity and higher conversion rate. And if it's not, you're probably doing something, um. There might be something off, whether it's how you're executing, or maybe that's not your ICP. 

John Common: Right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And that gets to kind of the last one I had on my list, which is do product marketers ever talk about lifetime value?

Yeah. So, so, so, so not so, uh, you know, stringing you alluded to it a second ago. That's why I brought it up, which is, you know, we want to win them the first time, but we sure would like to renew them a million times. And when, and if they have additional needs, we'd like to be the ones to upsell them as well.

Otherwise known as lifetime value. How, how, how, how should product marketing. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah. I mean, I, like, I live in the SAS world, so it's all about reoccurring revenue. And so like, it's super expensive. Sometimes like payback, tax payback is greater than a year, 12 months, so you need. Whether it's multi year deals or renewals, it needs to be baked in.

Um, but even if it's not like, even if you're not in like the SaaS or reoccurring revenue perspective, it's usage based if it's, you know, hardware or whatnot, like the cost of acquiring a new customer, this isn't news to anybody is so much higher than retaining and. Increasing the, like the contract value, increasing the, the, like the selling more skeet is so much lower that like, if you're not thinking about that and identifying like one, who are those companies that are most likely to stay with you for three, four, five, 10 years.

Um, and two that are like, Will, willing to part, like you, you're missing out. Cause like I can remember, I think it was IBM, not IDC. It's like we would talk to folks and like they would be able to acquire these customers and they do whatever it take to like close them. But then after a year they would turn out.

Cause it wasn't a prop, the product. It wasn't a fit, the use case, um, they weren't a healthy business, like whatever those reasons were, and it's actually a drag to your organization if people are leaving after a year. 

John Common: Yeah. Wow. Um, so, so we've got pipeline, we've got brand awareness, seeding the market for when they are ready.

We've got, I'll just call it sales success. That's ACV. That's pipeline velocity. And most importantly, maybe conversion rates. And then lastly, You put it all together and, and you will, you know, you have a successful product marketing team when you start to see lifetime values also go up. Do you feel like those four, are we missing any, or are those?

Yeah, I mean, I think, 

Sam Melnick: I think like, depending on the business, it's like lifetime value is part of this, but it's like, what is lifetime value? And it's like renewal rates, both net and gross. So like, or NDR. So it's like, if I were to put like a metric on like, yes, you can put a metric on lifetime value, but it's also like.

Am I within like good to like best in class, um, retention rates. Like I'd be thinking about that. Um, and that's a lot, that's everything, right? 

John Common: That's where the truth is. I bought you once. Do I regret it or not? I mean, that's kind of the moment of truth, isn't it? 

Sam Melnick: And it's like, that one's particularly important to product marketing.

Cause if you think about like. For me, product marketing, it's like voice of customer or bringing in that customer feedback. It's like, how do you define your ICP? Well, it's your most successful customers often. Um, how do you get customer insights? It's like, well, it's your most successful customers. How do you like, you're never going to let a customer like dictate, ideally dictate your roadmap, but you want that input, like who's on the cab, who is the ones that you bring or product reach out to your most successful customers.

So if like, People aren't happier. There isn't a good bucket of customers that are happily renewing. It makes product marketing a lot harder. 

John Common: Yeah, because you're, you have to go explore it, right? I mean, that's, and that gets to product market fit, which is one of the things I wanted to talk with you about, which is how do you, how do you define product market fit at the, at the mid market and enterprise level?

How do you, how do you define it? 

Sam Melnick: Yeah, I mean, what is it? It's like, um, I think like a couple of things like product defining product market fit is like, I don't know if there's like a perfect definition, but like, one is like, you can have product market fit, but then you can also lose it. So you have to defend it.

That's the first thing. Um, and then the second thing is like defining it is like, I hate saying it, but it depends. Like, I think about it of like certain amount of revenue. Okay. Certain amount of customers and a certain amount of like velocity of growth, particularly for newer products. If I was going to think of like for a larger organization, like any of these, like enterprise organizations, remember the market, they thought.

Like products that are 10, 15, even more 20 years old. So like, maybe it's not about growth, but it's about retaining. It's about usage. It's about like, what are you hearing in market as well? So like, to me, like that product market fit is like, is it a profitable or is there like, I don't know, profitable. I think a large organization is probably more like, what are the margins look like?

Is it, does it have a good margin profile? Are you retaining your customers? Are you staying your head over water? Are you hitting your growth targets? And then is there market? And that's the biggest thing to be honest. It's market Paul, our people, um, raising their hands. Maybe it's demo requests are, um, are you moving from like shifting marketing budget from like.

Again, we kind of talked about our category creation, but like brand building and awareness building to, um, demand, like, like obtaining or creation, uh, and like, um, growing that, that, like that size. Um, I'd also say, like, are there competitors? If there's not competitors and new competitors coming up, there's probably not as much product market fit doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's just like.

Those are some of the things. And then lastly, like when I talk about like losing product, like you got to defend that once you've gone. It's like, yeah, you got pro there's no party when you get product market fit. Like you can't, there's no finish line. So 

John Common: no, right, right. What, how, how, what are some examples of a company that we have achieved product market fit?

How, how do they defend? I love that phrase, defend your product market fit. 

Sam Melnick: How? Yeah. Yeah, so I think a couple of things. It's like, you know, if you talk to any great I can remember, we used to have these like board meetings with our customers and we'd often have them at large. Um, our large customers and I was a customer and we had it at when.

Um, Jonathan Becker, I think it was his name, was the CMO of SAP years ago. He kind of popped his head in, because usually it was like VP of marketing or like folks who are leading marketing ops that were part of like our customer base, but often like whomever was hosting there, like a senior marketer would come in.

Somebody asked him a question. It's like, when do you know, like a message is hitting or something similar? Like, when do you know you've hit more props? When you're so sick and tired of seeing the same message over and over that you never want to say it. That means you almost got there. So it's like, I think one is like, you defend it by once you hit a message, you, you stick with it until there's a reason not to, like, as long as you're finding that growth, because like, you, like, And I look at, you know, not an enterprise company, my career startup, we get a good exit and all of that.

But I was just telling someone, I made the same pitch four to five years straight. You could wake me up in the middle of the night and I could do our run versus do marketing pitch. Like literally at two in the morning. Someone's like, Hey, Tim, we need to pitch somebody an impact. I'd be like, what? And like, so like, that's one thing.

It's like, don't get shiny object syndrome and move to something else. Next is like, you kind of got to shore up your, like, almost like your core customer base. Like, yes, you need to keep expanding. You need to keep planning, but it's like those initial people who are in your ICP, who initially bought, who are like bleeding edge when it comes to like, whatever you're providing, like whatever your, your cap, your like solution is.

It's like. You need to make sure that like, again, like I talked about cab customer entries. It's like staying close to them and making sure that they're great. Cause they're going to be the first ones that move from you. Cause they were the first, they're the, they're like the early innovators. So that's another thing.

And then in third, it's like, it's like, it's like, and then this is like, I'm almost going back to it's like, this is, we're working with product and executive team or whomever and understanding like what's next. Because like, there's going to be a next particularly in like tech or SAS. And so it's like, What are those innovation bets that are going to be additive to what you've already built?

Because like, if you RAS, like that's where a lot of people will do is product market fit. They'll be like, okay, cool. This is our box and that'll serve you maybe for a year, maybe five years, maybe even 10 years, but eventually it will be disrupted. That's the beauty of. Innovation in the tech industry, at 

John Common: least and life, uh, wow, that Sam, that's great.

I, I got some notes. So how do you defend your product market fit? Number one, once you have it and you are good at expressing it, do not get bored with your own repetition. If it's working, don't change it. Keep getting better, double down and be good until there's a reason to change your message or your positioning.

Number one. Number two. Um. Your core best customers got you here. Hold on to them, follow them, explore them deeper. Don't, don't assume that you know everything about them. And that was two years ago. Keep learning with and from them. And then number three, you can't get lazy. You got to continue to make smart bets on innovation around what's next.

And you added something though. You said. It's not just any old thing. It's the adjacent what's next innovation that, uh, that is adjacent and connected to your current value prop. So you, you're deepening, you're deepening your value prop. So I love those three. That's really great. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah, and that third one when I think about it when I'm talking with like my product leadership or executives in general I think about it like from like total it's like total addressable market, but it's like what's obtainable Market and like to get to total addressable.

You need to both expand you need to expand that obtainable And that's where I think of like, okay, well, do we need to move into a new geo? Is there a talk in product that we could acquire or, or is there a feature that could add another skew or can we move up market or down market to like, those are all a J or like similarly, like, is there, like, are you.

Like postscripts, like, I don't know. There's a lot of marketing automation platforms or sales automation built on platforms. So do you need to move from like, not just being in the Salesforce ecosystem to the Adobe ecosystem or whatnot? Those are all additive because they're not like, Hey, let's go build a brand new product that's in a brand new industry or whatnot.

It's like. It's logically, you can logically say, Oh, we're gonna move. We're in North America and EMA. Now we need to go to APAC. What does that look like with the exact same thing that that's building on product market fit so is acquiring a smaller company and then trying to cross sell it or upset cross sell it into 30 percent of your account base because it's additive to the story.

Those are all example of like additive Building on the product market fit in an additive manner. 

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And they're buying journey. They have the platform expertise, the data and analytics expertise to meet your personas and buying teams where they are in the channels and platforms. They love visit them at intelligent demand. com and have a free consult with a media expert. Okay. So, um, Staying around kind of the, the, the field, the endeavor, the expertise around product, uh, product marketing, what's new in product marketing?

I mean, is it, is it the same shit that they did 20 years ago? I bet not. Uh, what, what, and break it down maybe in what's new in terms of, um, different strategies. An example might be, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, might be PLG, kind of the rise of PLG. I, I might put that as, that is a. That seems like a relatively new thing that has emerged over the last five years.

So strategy, new things, execution, or the practice of product marketing. And then thirdly, maybe the tools, the technologies that help product marketers be awesome at their job, but let's do them one at a time. Anything new. And your perspective strategy. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah. I think like you mentioned product led, I think it's almost like that is, and like where that lives depends, but like that is new or I'd say last like five to seven years.

And that's still a big opportunity. I'd say what's even more so particularly after, um, 20. 21 into 2022 as like, you know, the interest rates went back up and like, it wasn't just like growth at all costs across the board is also like, how do you turn a product? How do you marry product led with sales led?

Because what we found is a lot of folks who went through product lad often. Those are like monthly contracts or a low cost to switch or we acquired a bunch of like, Okay. Customers who got them in the top of the funnel, but then once budget dried up, it's really easy to like abandon without the human touch.

So it goes back to like, okay, how do we use these in tandem? Particularly when you think about like enterprise or larger organizations, cause like. Life, but certainly like business is inherently complex and to say, Oh, we're just going to be totally product led or we're only going to rely on sales reps is like rarely do you, like, can you like live in both worlds?

So I even think like sales reps. Sales led. You can create more efficiency within your organization when you're like super enterprise CS and sales led. If you're thinking of like, what are some product led motions that I can bring in there to create efficiency so that maybe I can move CSMs from having 20.

Customers to 25 customers because the product is more efficient or vice versa. Hey, I've got 10, 000 or 50, 000 customer from a product led. What is our, what is our true ICP look like? And how do we layer on top a sales led motion for that top, you know, 5%. And I think like that complexity is being, is part of product marketing and that's the ICP work.

That's the first thing that I would say. Um, so like that, that's probably where we're talking about. And the other is like. Pricing, um, usage billing is like a big thing. And it's kind of part of product blood. And you're seeing this a little bit with AI around like consumption pricing. Whereas like traditionally we talk about like seat base or, um, whatnot.

And like the combination of both like pricing optimization and value alignment. It's like, I want to pay. For something that like I get value for I don't want to just pay for it. Do I get value from a seat? I don't know but I get value from like, uh an outcome an outcome base and like when you think of like AI Particularly like agentic like agents.

It's like i'm gonna do a support ticket or i'm gonna for an ai sdr Like i'm gonna book a meeting like you start seeing pricing move that way. I do expect that to like There's a lot of challenges and usage in its own, but I see that as another strategy that product marketing is core to and it's like, 

John Common: Yeah, those are great.

Yep. So not just PLG, but I think, I think, I think we've made it to the second ending of PLG where we're like, Oh yeah, it's the product alone will grow the entire company. And if you're targeting something that's not a dollar a year, a CV, I think a lot of companies have been like, Hmm, that's high churn and low revenue.

I'm going to need to involve marketing and sales. Um, pricing, consumption pricing. That's great. What about, what about the, the day to day work of being a great product marketing manager? What tools or technologies or ways to execute product marketing have, is it the same or are there some new things? I 

Sam Melnick: mean, I think like when I think about it, it's like one is like, you took, like, I kind of, I almost caught myself earlier when I'm like product marketing kicks the baton from product man.

It's like, that's not how it works anymore or should work. It's still going to, but it's like, one is like, how is that like layer? Like, how do you layer and like, how do you organize your work? In that manner and like, I don't know if there's a specific tool, but it's like just general, like what we've seen over the last five or 10 years, whether it's like project management tools, whether it's like the Slack or Microsoft teams of the world and just like understanding how do you optimize that, like collaboration.

But I would say like I, I know it's cliche or around like ai, but I do think like a lot of the generative AI is built for product marketing. So if you think about like generative ai, it's like taking a lot of different like. Um, unstructured text or data and being able to make sense of it. So, like, whether it's something like something that, like a sales intelligence platform has brought brought in is able to summarize calls or multiple different calls.

That's wonderful for product marketing, whether it's taking a bunch of calls and customer research and putting it into, like, a custom built tool, or even just like chat GPT or cloud to, like, say, okay, here are 10 of my. My, um, you know, 50 calls or notes. Like I've, my team has put in like G2 crowd reviews, et cetera, and asked it to summarize for it.

Like this is like traditional product marketing work of like taking in all these inputs, summarizing and pulling in trends, like, you know, there's like a lot of hype around AI, but like, there's a lot of this stuff that's like saves hours of the day. Product marketing is particularly large organizations.

It's a lot about stakeholder alignment, making recommendations. So it's like. Writing a memo. And then you have folks like, you know, there's a lot of the out there that are like, you have a brand voice, you're writing copy, like, so like AI is built for that. And then the last thing is like, one, one thing my team has been like, just playing around with is like, um, Google has notebook LM.

And it's like, you can just put a bunch of information in it, like query dot query questions. And it's a good way to like, almost like have a creative repository of information. Like, I know, like, there's a lot of like, I'm trying not to name specific tech But like, you know, notion has like AI built in, we use loom has AI.

It's just like, there's so many things that product marketers use from whether it's just like creating content, summarizing, making recommendations that like, I think like, there's probably a lot of overhype around AI, but I'm generally like, Bullish from an efficiency standpoint to like, I can get something to 60 or 70 percent in 20 percent of the time it used to be.

And then I can just get that like last mile myself. And that's what I'm excited about from there for like, when it comes to AI. 

John Common: Yeah, I, I see it in my own work, um, on a daily basis as well. That's really great. Um, this is a great conversation. I love talking to you about this. I knew, I knew we would have fun.

I, uh, and, but you're, you're so good at letting me just pepper you with all these questions. So thank you, by the way. Um, I, I want to sort of start to pivot a little bit and start to talk to the human side. Right. And so, uh, Sam, give us advice and I'm going to give you a list of peers or, or other people That exist in the, in the, in the go to market team at these large B2B companies that you and I love and work for.

And I'm going to, and I'm going to ask you the sort of the same question several times. So, uh, uh, there's no wrong answer, but just, uh, off the top of your head, if you were to give advice to a product mark, uh, marketing manager or a product marketing function that really wants to become more effective.

And how they work with the following people, I'm going to tee up, I'm going to tee up the function and then I want you to just be like, okay, in my experience, this is what I would advice I would give to that product marketing manager. So the first one is how can product marketing ensure more success and how they work with growth marketing, demand marketing.

What's one piece of advice you would say, man, in my experience? 

Sam Melnick: I would say, understand the lead targets or the growth targets from like a lead, often lead or pipe perspective. And align as early as possible on what features launches are coming down the pipeline and how that can help there. So don't just think about it.

We're going to launch this widget, but think about it. I've got this stakeholder who has a monthly or quarterly number and how does my widget opt in position value work for them to then meet their goal? Because you have to find a way to like Get into their calendar and get like get their resources to have your launch and your go to market plan work and you can't just be like, Ta da, here's my thing that I'm bringing to market.

You say, here's the value. Here's this and that. And like, Can we figure out like, what the best way to like, work this into a campaign is? 

John Common: That's fantastic. I deeply understand. And I bet a lot of like, it's one thing to be like, yeah, my, I have a brilliant strategy. Take it from here demand and growth marketing and ABX people.

And then what I'm hearing you say is no, you got to go deeper. You got to say, what are the goals? When do we need to have it? What are the specific messages? When is, when is this feature or this content going to be ready? And then partnering with your growth marketing team versus just, you know, uh, dumping it in a 90 page PowerPoint deck on them and say, you know, figure it out.

Yeah. 

Sam Melnick: And sometimes there's like a new launch or something that like actually isn't going to help. The growth it's more customer based and that's okay Maybe there's a feature or a value that's been in the product for three quarters that we should revisit and that's a better campaign So like meeting them where they are and understanding like hey They need to drive net new demand and this thing actually isn't going to do it.

So let's go find the thing that is 

John Common: Yeah, oh, that's so good. Okay. Um next one is um advice for a product marketing team that wants to genuinely get better at working with their sdr Uh, you know, inside sales SDR team 

Sam Melnick: join the standups, see what questions they have, um, what are they unsure about, like, SDR it's like they're always, like, they're trying to, depending on how big, like we're talking about thousands upon thousands of outreaches a week, and we're talking about the hardest job in, like, I, like, there's a lot of hard jobs, but SDR is the hard, so it's like, get some empathy, get on the call with them.

Often the, like, the, the managers are great, but like the. Not just the managers, but like the frontline SDRs. They are sometimes in their first or second jobs. They're not necessarily the most senior experience. So like join the standups, make yourself available. I haven't done this actually great trigger for me.

I should go do this, but like get on their standup and just hold an office hour. What questions are you'll get? 13 ideas. You'd be like, Oh, we should do a cadence on this. Oh, we're not, we need to revamp our competitive here. Oh, we got this feature coming out. That's the art. So like, to me, it's like, it's just so it's just get on the phone, get on there, get on the wheat.

They always have standups. So it's like join the standup and just make yourself available. And like, you'll have so many great ideas from it. 

John Common: Yes. Nailed that. Okay. Next one is, so it's not the SDR function, but advice for how a product marketing team can improve its performance. With sales and specifically sort of more enterprise sales 

Sam Melnick: go pitch with the enterprise sales rep always pitch With them if they let you and I think that's the thing like if you don't have one or two A ease that like you can go ride with as a product marketing organization Then you need to like start from ground zero and be like, how do I build that relationship?

How do I understand it? Because if they don't trust you to like at least hop on a call if not pitch with them Then like you probably are not providing what you need for sales so it's like if you're willing to pitch and then the other is like it's like Like sales leadership. It's like there's a lot of empathy.

It's the same way. Like you got to have empathy here in the sense of like they have a quarterly number. It's like, that's what they're like. They need it. Like, again, a very hard job. And so it's like. What are, what's one thing, even if you're like, this is lame, what's one thing you can do to help that team get to that number?

I'm not saying say yes to everything, like, hey, can you build a slide for this or that? But like, how do you make sure that they're going to hit their number? And like, it can be a negotiation, but like prioritize Hey. That thing for sales, even if you're like, Hmm, that actually isn't the most thing. Cause it's going to help them hit their numbers.

It's going to build that trust. Cause once you have the trust of sales, like you get brought into more things, you get access to customers. You can like do pitch. You can like, they, you, they, they trust you on pricing. Like there's just so, it just opens up so much of your world. 

John Common: Yeah. So. Let's go down the bow tie, so to speak, to CS, uh, would, would, would it be similar advice for how to improve, go, go spend time with them at their QBRs, but I don't want you to tell me.

Sam Melnick: But it's different, it's different for CS, because like sales with like CS, like sales with like, the best sales reps care about the customer success. Forever, but their number, they close it quotas like they check off the quota and they're like, I got to get another one of those and like, it's much more transactional or CS.

Like, we talked about like lifetime value. Like, ideally, these customers are customers for ever. And so, to me, it's like, Okay. It's a little less transactional because like of the nature of sales is transactional and less quarterly and it's more like really understanding like where are they getting hung up so it's not just a quarter I almost think about like less about like even like business periods but it's like what are the trends you're hearing there is there like a way that like you can help remove a blocker that Is like stopping renewals or making servicing the product that much harder or whatnot and like with CS I always find that like there's like you can just like go deeper and deeper like they bring you a problem or if you find a problem there, there's usually a there there, whether it's something in the sales cycle, whether it's a product issue, whether it's how you're positioning, whether it's like.

Enablement. So, so yes, it's the same, but it's like, I don't know. I don't think I'm doing a great job of explaining how like it's different, but it's just like, there's just like, it's a longer relationship and therefore there's more complexity there. 

John Common: Yeah. A hundred percent. No, I follow you. I follow you.

Okay. Last couple, we're almost done with this, uh, grueling round of advice from Sam Melnick, um, advice for how product marketing can be a more effective. With the CFO 

Sam Melnick: CFO, understand the model, that's what like whether this is like general marketing advice. It's like you've got to understand the financial model, the plan that's been put on place because the plan is like the CFO and the business is like agreement with the CEO and the board of like how we're going to get to our number and the model is inherently me.

so much. Wrong. Once it's published, it's like, you're going to miss something. You're going to go over somewhere. You're going to go under somewhere, but like understanding what the CFO has put on place for like the financial model of like how much revenue is going to be driven by what business unit through what geo by what point, and just like understanding the nuances of it.

Is it deal size? Is it this, is it that? Cause like, once you understand that, then you can go to the CFO and say, Hey, I actually think I can increase deal size by this much so that we don't have to drive as much leads and I'm going to go do that with sales or, Hey. I actually don't think this product line is going to like, I'm seeing like softness in this product line, but like, maybe if we bring this product to market sooner or focus more of our energy on this product line or this upsell opportunity, we can make up some gap.

And like, that's what the CFO is going to talk about. And like, they're working usually hand in hand with the CEO on like that financial model of what, like, whether it's a public or private company, it's like, you're basically saying, Hey, this is what we're committing to you, the board or the public market.

And so like. It's product marketing. You need to like, and as a marketing leader, you need to understand that, but particularly product marketing, cause you're in the middle of all of these things. So like, that's my thing. 

John Common: Know the model. Okay. The last one is, um, CEO, CEO, when, when, when, when a product marketing team ends up in a meeting with the CEO or in the hallway or, you know, out there in the world, uh, what, what advice would you have?

Sam Melnick: Ah man, so if I was saying because like not like for startups, it's like It is different. So like i'm 

John Common: because it's startups that's usually the founder and what I found is that like if you peel back a founder you You're looking at a product marketing manager on a certain level, but that's not the case. I love that you brought this.

That is not the case when you get into the mid marketed enterprise. They're more of a financially driven often or sales driven. 

Sam Melnick: Yeah. Cause like if it's founder letter, still a founder, it's like making sure their voice is heard and making sure like they're part of the process and like using that as their superpower.

And that sometimes still exists at the end, like once the companies get larger, but there is a, like, there's a, like, um, it's like, Instead of like using the superpower of, um, them like knowing the market and having this, this unique voice, it's more of you showing them that you understand the market and like you can provide them with levers or points of view on something that, again, it's like, hey, I know we're going into a new geo or region.

I actually think we have an opportunity to do X or Y. Or it's like, Hey, I see softness in this part of the business. Like, so it's like knowing the, like, whereas like the model is for the CFO, but like the market and the business is for the CEO. It's like, how do you bring that like strategy level of like understanding, like.

All these different aspects of like growth of sales yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada product and saying, Hey, actually, like, I know this is an issue for you. I might have a solution for you or at least an idea. 

John Common: That's great. Would 

Sam Melnick: you agree with that? Cause like I do spend more of my time and like, and I spent more of my time in the startup world, but like, would you agree with that?

John Common: Yeah, I think, I think that, uh, and I say this with love, but I think that as you move into. Mid market and enterprise, the role of the CEO or general manager is so big and so deep and so administrative by definition, they can, with the best of intentions, um, end up running out of date, an out of date understanding of the market, of the, of the customers, of what product market fit is.

And so I would want my product marketing team to have a trusting relationship with me and be willing to come challenge me. Respectfully, but challenged me about, Hey, I know that that used to be true and it still is somewhat, but actually, John, um, here's some data. Here's some input. And then I want to let you know what I'm seeing, but that also hear from you.

Like if they came to me like a partner, I would feel like I died and gone to heaven. Honestly, 

Sam Melnick: I, I, that's great feedback. And I, I generally agree. I think that's great. 

John Common: Um, all right. So, uh, we're coming up on our time here, Sam. I want, but I would, I don't want to let you, uh, out of this episode of growth driver without kind of taking it, uh, into leadership a little bit.

So you are such a deep thinker and you're also just, I, you know, you, you really strike me as such a kind person and a, and a, and a. generous person when it comes to, you know, you seem to have done some self awareness work and those are usually traits. Uh, I don't know how or why, but you clearly that, and I, I admire that.

Like, in your leadership journey, like, what's, what's something that you either, you can take it any way you want. A challenge where you're like, honestly, I used to not be this. And then something happened and I, I really learned something important as a leader or something that you just be like, man, I have, I have started to crack the code a little bit on how important this or that is.

What's a leadership lesson? 

Sam Melnick: Yeah, um, a couple things come to mind. So that's why I'm pausing for a minute. 

John Common: Take your time. 

Sam Melnick: Um, I think there's two things One is like when I first took on a larger team like not like one or two people but like double digit I work with career executive coaches on or off throughout my career and my coach at that time, she said, well, now your work is no longer yours.

It's your team's work. And I was like, yeah, I got that. But I think it took me like two to three years to really grok it. And that means like, there's a lot of. Talk out there about like first team. I think it's the Patrick Leonis thing. And like, I believe in that, but I also think like that can be a crutch for leaders to like, not invest in, like set their teeth, their direct teams up for success.

Like it's both like your first team is earlier, but like. You also can't succeed with the human beings that are on your team that are doing the work. And the more like scope you have, the less actual work you do. So it's like each person is unique and you have to set them up to be successful. And it's not about you.

It's about them and like figuring out how uniquely. So that's one thing. And then I think the other thing is like, I'm trying to like,

I'm trying, I gotta get it. I actually, yeah, there is like. I like some of my regrets, but like, I got to like, I got, there's a picture for my three year old, but you can't see, but like, I've got a seven and a three year old and like, like work, a working parent, you don't know what it's a lot like until you have kids and you've worked, like, like you can, you can learn about it, you can have like all this, but until you've like lived it, it's impossible to know.

And I think about like when I had kids and when I didn't, even when I had people on my team that had kids, like I like. Don't think I had the like Empathy or like but maybe I couldn't have until I had kids and like I look back on some of that stuff And i'm like, oh I could have done better there So I think like having that empathy and understanding that like one of that's one of those things That's like a lived experience and it does add a lot of complexity to like your life which work is part of and so is and just like Sitting with that as a leader, whether you have kids or not, and like making sure that like, you know, it's not like you, you have less standards for those, but it's just like, your life is more complex and like acknowledging and respecting and like making sure like that's part of how you manage and manage those people because each person is unique and each their lives are unique.

So those are two things that have come to mind. 

John Common: Yeah, that's great. That's so true. It's so true. Um, last one is how do you, how do you. Take care of yourself. How do you, how do you, I can see right now on your face. You're like, that's not a thing, John. I've got a three year old. But like, how do you, How do you try to make sure that Sam has some gas in the tank every once in a while and recharges?

Sam Melnick: Yeah, so I think a couple of things like one is like this is one of the kids things that you don't like I put a block on my calendar from whatever five to eight o'clock. I asked people to try and block it or like six days. Like, of course, it's not perfect. I also try and put a buffer like I work remote, which is a wonderful thing.

But I also have a three and a seven year old that come home sometimes between four and five o'clock. And if I go right from a call to my kids, like there's like, I can't be present and so like this is like daily things like that skin that's kids specific but maybe if you don't have kids it's like making sure that you do like put 15 minutes to like go for a walk or meditate or workout or whatever and like build out figure out what that is.

For you uniquely, but for me, it's like making sure I have a try and make sure I have a bit of a buffer. And like, there's always going to be exceptions. Um, I would say the other is like, I try and like, particularly with my partner, my wife, we like to go to live music. So trying to do that every so often and making sure like we live close.

We have family support to kind of help around. So making sure like we have that and then I don't know, moving your body is always good. Like whether it's like true exercise or just like going for a walk. 

John Common: Yeah. What, what band are you into or what music are you into these days? 

Sam Melnick: Um, what music am I into these days?

Um, I like, um, let's see, we would blast one we went to is Tedeschi trucks fan I've seen. Folks like fish in the grave and like the dead many times rock. My wife is taking my son to the Boston pops because he's into it. Like my seven year old, he's like, I'm going to play violin. I'm like, I don't know if I want that in my house, but they go to the Boston pop.

So we'll do a little bit of it. I saw an awesome show at like a club Jack white played there. And it was like 300 person club. My wife won't let me talk about this anymore. She's like, I know it's a great show. It's not talking about it. So you're here and I'm going to talk. you about it. So I'll do anything.

I like a good guitarist. Um, I like a good guitarist, whether I get a jam band or whether it's classic rock or whether it's Jack White. Like if you bring me a good guitarist, I'll go see it. 

John Common: Well next time I'm in Boston, we're gonna have to go get a drink and go, go see a show or something, man. That sounds good.

Sam, thanks for being on growth driver. And thanks for being so generous with your own knowledge and experience. I have been really looking forward to get to know you more and uh, thank you. Thank you for being on growth driver. 

Sam Melnick: Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure and appreciate the opportunity. 

John Common: Yeah, buddy.

All right. Uh, we'll talk to you soon. Sam Melnick, uh, was every bit as cool as I know he, uh, would be. And, uh, I just want to thank you for spending your time with us today here on growth driver. If you like what you hear, I want you to do me a favor, reach out to me, reach out to Sam. Uh, if you see a clips and content, I want you to follow it.

I want you to like it. I want you to share it with your friends, send it to your, uh, your go to market teams and geek out with us. That's what it's all about here. Um, Growth driver is brought to you today by the talented and kind people of intelligent demand. And I'm here to tell you, if you work at a company that is under the gun to drive growth, and you need a partner that gets it, plays the long game with you, that loves innovating and being efficient, um, reach out to them at intelligent demand.

com. See you soon on growth driver, everybody. Bye.